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tomgriffin56
USA
88 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2003 : 16:37:57
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Really hard to follow who is being a s**t here when the edits fly so hard and fast and by so many people. Posts change by the second, even two or three days after they were posted. Sometimes for the good and sometimes not. I personally quit participating and even quit enjoying the viewing of a barroom brawl about the time I was a corporal. This thread has gone from being a possibly educational thread to being like a train wreck, you just can't turn away even if it turns your stomach. Name-calling and even trying to turn a nationalistic bias is pretty low, no matter how innocent you act after editing the post.
I would like to think that as professionals we would be able to at least approach some level of detente.
Just offering up my opinion, fire at will, ya'll.
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okclarryd
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2003 : 12:01:58
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The issue here is ground water / flood. No coverage, plain and simple. No matter how involved you might make this issue, no coverage. The ensuing damage to the deck / patio--------no coverage. The cause of loss is ground water / flood. 'Splain to me where coverage can be found.
Floating pools is not common but it's certainly not heard of, either. |
LARRY D HARDIN |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2003 : 20:58:49
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Larry, I have noted your recent comments. I agree, it is "plain and simple", but again to me, it is plain and simple that there is coverage; and the issue is not really that involved.
The term you use - "ground water" - is not found in an HO3 (0491), but we can agree that it relates to item ("C3") of the Water Damage exclusion as found in Section I - Exclusions; ".... water below the surface of the ground ....".
However, the claim scenario from which I developed my opinion, is as noted on page 2 of this thread as per my 6/6 post at 10.33; in that scenario "ground water" or flood or even "surface water" had nothing to do with coverage or otherwise for the loss.
The issue of "water" in this claim is only as it relates to water sitting on the surface of a pool cover; not water on the ground or in the ground.
Hopefully my posts in this thread have explained my position on the matter.
However, some further exploration of some of the terms used to suggest there is no coverage, may help to show that they do not apply to this scenario.
As per "The Groundwater Foundation", "groundwater" is defined as water that is found underground in cracks and spaces in soil, sand and rocks. The area where water fills these spaces is called the "saturated zone", the top of this zone is called the "water table".
As per the NFIP, "flood" means: "A general and temporary condition of partial or complete inundation of normally dry land area from: (1) the overflow of inland or tidal waters, (2) the unusual and rapid accumulation or runoff of surface waters from any source".
Others have suggested that there is no coverage due to "surface water", part of the Water Damage ("C1") exclusion in Section I - Exclusions.
The policy does not define "surface water" but the courts have defined "surface water", and a common thread can be noticed in those defintions.
'Transamerica Ins Co v. Raffkind (Tx)' defines surface water as, "natural percipitation coming on and passing over the surface of the ground".
'Fenmode v. Aetna Casualty (Conn)' says, "surface waters are commonly understood to be waters on the surface of the ground ....".
'Urse v. Maryland Casualty (ND)' says, "surface water is water of casual, vagrant character, oozing through the soil, or diffusing and squandering over the surface ....".
And, that case relied further on "Kinney on Irrigation and Water Rights" which stated, "surface water may be defined as water on the surface of the ground ....".
'Aetna Fire v. Crawley (GA App) stated that, "surface water is used as part of a series of contingencies all of which have in common the property that they comprise water flowing on the surface of the ground ....".
'Hatley v. Truck Ins Exch (OR)' stated that, "the term surface water particularly when used in conjunction with flood, waves and tidal water, was intended to mean water diffusing over the surface of the ground ....".
Therefore, water sitting on a pool cover, and that pool cover is situated over a swimming pool, and that pool cover is fastened to patio stone edging - is not surface water, is not ground water, and is not a condition of flood. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 11:22:09
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Lenny, in the kuffle last week, it appears your question as found in your 6/15 post at 12.06 remains unanswered.
The question was, "what is the definition of 'attached' in accordance to policy?"
This issue arises in an HO3 under Coverage A - Dwelling which adds, ".... including structures attached to the dwelling ....".
The other side of that issue is found in Coverage B - Other Structures which says, ".... set apart from the dwelling by a clear space ...."; but goes to the trouble of adding a "connection" phrase, ".... includes structures connected to a dwelling by only a fence, utility line or similar connection".
Where words or terms are not defined within the applicable policy, in working towards a reasonable answer to the question at hand, I would seek out the relevant definitions found in the appropriate state or municipal building codes; where existing or consider definitions as found in the National Building Code.
Various jurisdictions define the following, some noted for comparative and contrasting elements:
"Detached building" - a building that has no structural connection with another building.
"Deck" - an exterior floor system supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjoining structure and / or posts, piers, or other independent system.
"Porch" - a roofed area, which may be screened or enclosed, attached to and with direct access to a building.
"Patio" - a paved area or courtyard open to the sky adjoining a dwelling.
A municipality in Florida defines the following:
"Attached structure" - any structure that is attached to another structure by a common wall, by a roof, or by structural connections .... structures connected only by an "I" beam or similar connections are not considered attached.
"Open space" - any portion of a zoning lot or area of land or water that is open and unobstructed from the ground to the sky.
You could also - with a free subscription - review the National Underwriter, FC&S Message Board, where only professional discussions occur on issues regarding coverage. They can be accessed at http://www.nationalunderwriter.com and then find your way to the "Message Board". I note that in January 2002, an inquiry similar to yours was made concerning "exterior hot tub", and a logical opinion was offered by one of the delegated responders to the Board. As well, the "aquarium" issue as noted in another CADO thread, was addressed in December 2001.
You could also - with a free subscription - review topics discussed through the Research Library of the "Big I Virtual University" a medium provided by the Independent Agents & BRokers of America. They can be accessed at http://www.vu.iiaa.net. That is where I obtained the case law history I noted in my last post to this thread; relative to "surface water".
Then, if an explanation or application of a word or term still eludes you; a web search of case law can be undertaken. |
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Floating Pool
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