No sir, we will definately not work for Citizens and I feel strongly that many of my long time adjuster friends will not work for a beaucratic, authoritarian organzation like that. Low fees, no mileage, no this, no that, but we will fine you if you don't bend over. No, No, No. Is that clear enough Marc.

The large number of e-mails received about the Citizens training leads me to believe there is little interest being shown by adjusters. I am going to a seminar at the end of the month but it is one day and 2 hours from home. I would not travel any further or incur hotel expenses. Will I work for them? I don't know.

Perhaps if we wait long enough to register, the vendors will be offering to pay us to attend!    

The above is the fee schedule taken from the third amendment to the RFP dated 05/09. I like Kim's idea. Let's simply refuse to attend the face to face and see what happens. I've been invited to no fewer than 10 vendors classes. Funny some are free some are $39.95. Everyone should look at the requirements to work for these people. Deb of Claims Mentor has done a great job on tracking down all the info you should look at the site www.claimsmentor.com to get the lowdown on this carrier.

I recall that a constructive total loss that consists of only a slab etc. remaining is a $700 fee bill regardless of policy limits.

This appears under additional fee schedules. Another quandary to be explained , if there were a loss, with policy limit coverage of $100,001  then the fee bill would be $2,850. or 2.8%

SO, HOW CAN THIS BE REDUCED TO $70.00 UNDER THE PUBLISHED FEE SCHEDULE. ( Bet a PA and Lawyer gets it right)

Seems the more they qualify, quantify and extrapolate the more confusing and less desirable their employ becomes.

Larry, I, for one, am with you. Too many changes, too many rules, too many reasons and opportunties to screw the adjuster.

60% to 70% of $70, will that even cover the gas after the next hurricane bounces prices?

The correct amount is $700.00...not $70.00 for a total loss based on an RCV square foot valuation....,still rather low for all the requirements and exposure to penalties, etc.

Citizens will be a serious problem for everyone if a major event occurs or worse yet if two moderate events occurr........

I stand corrected. A full report for $70. Sign me up.

This Citizens ship is listing so bad from the leaks that the mooring lines are the only thing keeping it upright. I would not go aboard as it will capsize.

Guess what folks? Citizens has uploaded a new Revised Addendum A dated 5/19/08 and on the $70.00 fee they show it now revised to $700.00 in spite of their Q & A answer that $70.00 was correct which they answered in their 5/9/08 Q and A. It is the last document today on the 08-0016 RFP showing revision to Addendum A revised 5/19/08. They also uploaded a new Q & A dated 5/19/08 yet the answers seem to be the same as in the 5/9/08 Q & A with the same answer to the 70 vs 700 issue saying it is 70.00. So we have two documents new today and they conflict with each other on the issue.

Mr Smith- good question on the adjusting firms/adjuster issues. Somewhere in all of these 08 RFP documents, there is a comment about adjusting firms not taking adjusters from other adjusting firms. Most adjusters I know have applied to multiple vendors post all of the 07 online training criteria. So who decides who belongs to which adjusting firm? I know most folks had to list an adjusting firm when they did the online training with their codes but does that hold you to that firm? I have no idea the answers to these questions but if Citizens were smart, they'd add a clarification on this information in one of their sure to be multiple more revisions.

Also- I'd make sure everyone reads the zip documents -especially Attachment J -on RFP 08-0016 for the info I mentioned in first post on the Indemnity clause on litigation and the comments in 4.3 on "no negotiation" on fee schedules. Make sure you also note that in 10.27 on Attachment J that they are going to charge the adjusting firm 15.00 per day for an adjuster  if they work in a Citizens office so that's about $450.00 per in office adjuster (does this apply to mgmt working in their offices too?) per month.. Before accepting an in office assignment, I'd make sure to check with the vendor to see if you are going to be charged back that fee based on the terms of your independent contract with them. Adjusters are also responsible for providing their own Xactimate(they didn't clarify which version) so together wouldn't you be paying well over 600 per month to work for them per month?

I found the specific link in the initial Addendum A in the RFP Documents  that show zip docs pertaining to vendors and adjusters from other firms in the RFP 08-0016 documents on Attachment A in provision 5.6.5 which says:

Good question- here's an 04 article saying FL issued over 17,000 emergency licenses in the 4 in 04 but doesn't address the actual number of resident and non resident licenses (many inaccuracies in this article you'll note on daily rates,etc):

http://www.miamiherald.com/878/story/20837.html

Also, in one of the board meeting notes there is a report to the board of governors about how many of those 6500 submitted names were original entries for unique individuals that took their online training. If I recall it was about 4,500 but I'll do some research and find their exact statement.

Deb you are a real treasure trove of info on the Citizens issue. My big question is why would anyone in their right mind consider working for them?. If we as intelligent beings left those hellbent on mind numbing bureaucracy to their own devices maybe at some point they would see the light. If a very small number of folks bothered with their redundant training, and if the vendors had the fortitude to tell them their methods were inane maybe the folks at Citizens would get the gist of the situation. Complacent vendors, newbies and Citizens what a recipe for disaster. It seems that several of the more seasoned vets on this site have seen the light and are refusing to work for this carrier we can only hope more see the light. The thoughts of working for fines, penalties and folks without a clue isn't real attractive. I hope things change before the poor folks in Florida realize that hurricanes aren't their only disaster waiting to happen.

Everyone contemplating working for the mothership needs to read the following:

https://www.citizensfla.com/shared/...k_5_19.doc

Recieved an e mail from a vendor today stating a bonus of $1000.00 after you have successfuly handled 10 Citizens claims for them. Part of a deal to offset the cost of taking the course from them. Air miles and gift cards next?????

Marc,

You should have posted the name of that vendor. Base on their reputation for paying adjuster's as posted on CADO, I doubt anyone will ever receive the $1,000 let alone their fee. Does NADO ring a bell?

Lenny Wenrick

Going back to the 5/9/08 Q & A where one of the vendors asked about fee bills and what happens if Citizens runs out of money, you'll find this 5/19/08 article from AM Best the agency who rates insurers interesting as it discusses Citizens of FL:

A.M. Best: Credit Woes May Cause Turbulence in Catastrophe Markets
May 19, 2008

• The credit crunch in the U.S. financial markets that boiled over after the subprime mortgage meltdown may affect the ability of insurers and reinsurers that cover coastal areas to raise cash for claims if a major hurricane were to strike the United States this year, according to a special report released May 19 by A.M. Best.

Investors are showing a limited appetite for capital-market offerings designed to raise cash for claims payments, Best said. In addition, insurers' exposure in hurricane-prone states to properties foreclosed and abandoned as a result of the subprime mortgage crisis has come under review. More than 500,000 properties in coastal areas from Maine to Texas have been foreclosed on due to the subprime mortgage crisis. Florida alone has more than 100,000 properties currently subject to foreclosure.

"Unoccupied, unsecured properties may be at increased risk in a storm, and financial stress on homeowners may increase the temptation to commit fraud," according to the report, titled "Credit Crunch Clouds Outlook of Hurricane Insurers, Cat Funds."

The report says insurers may not realize the extent to which their books of business are exposed to foreclosed properties. It said agents "can act as a line of defense for insurers" in this situation. "An agent's mailing returned as undeliverable can be a warning sign that a policyholder is in financial trouble. News of a foreclosure, passed along to the homeowners insurer, can provide notice that the risk on a particular property just changed drastically."

States like Florida, Louisiana and Texas, which rely on state-backed wind and coastal area insurance pools, may be most at risk. As a result of tightening credit, Florida's largest insurer and state-run reinsurer, both of which depend on post-event bond offerings to cover any cash shortfall, may lack the funds to immediately pay all claims from a major storm, the report says.

A major hurricane has not struck Florida in two years, allowing private insurers to rebuild capital and surplus in that state after running up big losses in 2004 and 2005, and the Florida Hurricane Catastrophe Fund (FHCF) is looking for other ways boost liquidity and capacity. However, the report points out that "nsurers could incur credit risk for their reinsurance recoverables tied to the FHCF if the fund has trouble raising money, while claims payments for Citizens' policyholders could be delayed."

Best warned that state and federal funds may be tapped if hurricane losses should exceed the ability of state-backed insurers of last resort to pay claims. Meanwhile, in addition to companies, municipalities are suffering from limited access to cash at affordable rates.

Hurricane forecasters have indicated the 2008 hurricane season may be busier than usual, the report says.

Hurricane Katrina in 2005 holds the record for the highest insured losses from a hurricane in the U.S. at $44.9 billion. Hurricane Andrew in 1992 comes in second, with $25.6 billion (stated in 2008 dollars) and Hurricane Wilma in 2004 ranked third with $11.4 billion in insured losses.

Source: A.M. Best, http://www.ambest.com

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2008/05/19/90158.htm

Would it not be great to work with the threat of penalties and then not even get paid for your work. Interesting article Deb.One needs to seriously consider who they will be working for in the event that this year actually lives up to the predictions. Stay tuned to this site which is of great benefit to the cat adjuster wanting to keep abreast of trends and news. This year especially keep an eye open for the vendor comments. It's gonna be interesting folks!!!!!!!!

That is a common requirement at the meetings I've been to. Almost as common as the number of new adjusters who are willing to claim to have 3-5 years experience when asked.

JWG

The requirements of Citizens are not unreasonable, but I just do not think 45 or 46 vendors on the list  could make the first paycheck within about 3 weeks after the first loss is turned in. I would  guess only about 10 to 15% have the capitol to make the first payroll on time.

Why dont the blood sucking vendors ask Citizens for a $2,000 advance paid to each adjuster who shows up ON TIME (as required) as an advance on the x-mate boot up and living expense until the first pay check. In the good old USA this is known as "good faith" and "supply and demand in times of great need" hmmm....why dont all you hungary fools who are forced to use xactimate ask for what is right ??? xactimate profiles are a tool for the carrier and should be paid by the carrier. stop getting pushed around, ask or you will never receive.

The motto of 2008; No way unless 2K today. Send this to ever hungary fool you know.

The vendors who are on the Texas TWIA list have a list of committed adjusters who work for each vendor and they are paid several hundred a year to show up at the annual meeting. They must convince the vendor they will show when called or they will not be on the list. I never made the commitment as I wanted to shop for the highest $ potential. Now has Citizens thought about this ? I always thought all contracts had to have consideration paid and I know a bunch of us have received a $1.00 in January each year from the largest cat. vendor to keep us on the temp.employee status.

I am sure that the most of you carry a strong sense of common sense. If Citizens were to start running out of claims money, you should know that the adjuster fee bill will be the first cut in the line. Policyholder payment is priority, per Citizens rules and payment for claim adjusters will be last, in other words, they run out of dough, and your out in the snow. Of course your not going to have that kind of investment anyway, just several thousands of dollars for Hotel, Food, Estimating system(s), transportation you won't be reimbursed for and then the small investiment in fuel. Better keep your pay in a hidden belt.

FYI,

I just got done with a citizens  face to face and to me it was adjusting 101. It was a waste of time and i am so glad that it was free. I cannot believe the steps we will have to go thru to send a file. It also does not make sence why we have to use xactimate 25.1 the only thing they will need is the estimate that we pull out of the program and send in pdf format. For what their fee schedule is it is not worth the time. What they expect is only good if the files are done on a T&E basis. Again this is just my opinion and they are a choice of last resort. I for one will work for anyone else first.

Lenny,

Do you know anyone that did'nt get paid by NADO?