Posted By JimAustin on 24 Jul 2009 12:52 PM

...  I'm new to the industry and would like some info on steep roof training. 
 

Have you seen this thread: http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...fault.aspx

also one on ladder safety http://catadjuster.org/Forums/tabid...fault.aspx

I think you are in the middle of a squalble of training schools. I don,t think US Staffing trains State Farm Adjusters. None of the traing schools have any creditability except VALE TEC. I was trained by my employer, a major insurance company who sent me to a lot of legal, construction, theory  and letter writing schools but none of these schools can certify you as competant......

I took the State Farm and Allstate test many years ago and the vendor who sponsered me made it very clear. "I was now eligable to work for these two carriers, but I had no certifications. No standards exist that I know off.

Posted By JimAustin on 27 Jul 2009 10:34 AM
Ive contacted some of my close friends with State Farm and they spoke to the people in charge of the rope and harness division and they claim that they've never heard of Mr. Kramer and that he never trained adjusters from that company. Their information also confirmed that State Farm uses US Staffings training facility to train their adjusters. 

Do you know people in the Nat Cat team of State Farm, or were you just talking to the local claims people?

Honestly there are so many people working at the National Cat team as State Farm staff that they do not know every other person there.   If you are talking to simply the local claims department, they are not on the same radar screen we are talking about.

Ray's right, they train their own (at least the Cat team of State Farm).  I am currently deployed with State Farm as an independent and have worked with them quite a bit.  Keven and I worked out of the same office at Katrina, he is a good guy in my opinion.  We all have our baggage, and I am no exception. 

As to the main focus of your post - really you could do all the training in the world and still go broke in this business.  it is very hard to keep steady work, it is something we all have to work at.  You can have qualifications out the wazoo and still have grief landing a gig. 

In my opinion, the reason to do the steep training is just for safety.  I roped up on a 12/12 with loose granules today that would have been totally a widow-maker without a rope & harness.  And there is no way the damage could have been seen from the ground.  Only a few shingles were missing, they were 30 year laminates with random tears throughout, with nails pulled through asphalt.  The tears blended in with the dimensional look, you had to really get up close, and draw chalk lines so it would show up on the camera.

 

Posted By JimAustin on 28 Jul 2009 09:54 AM
...and as far as the certifications thing, that is exactly what I thought. There is no such thing as a steep roof certification, its just for personal safety.

Actually, I mentioned my opinion, the reason to do the steep training is just for safety.
I didn't say there wasn't a certification:
 

Posted By Amart on 04 Aug 2009 08:23 PM
...On the way back down however i decided it would be best to distribute my weight over both feet and hands. After arriving at the eave after a slow slide, i had tear in my pants and my hands were torn up and bleeding.  

Sometimes it takes a humbling experience to force us to change our habits, or take the extra effort to learn how to conquer something.  I know I went up some widow-maker roofs that prompted me to fly from my home town in California to Houston, 2 days hotel, and the class was a fraction of the cost of the trip.  I would do it again in a heartbeat, and now carry my rope & equipment and use it anytime the roof is at all spooky.  Some roofs will shed granules like BB's and even cougar paws will not save you.  You need to be able to rope up, regardless of who trains you or of you do your own research, it's better than landing "jelly side down" on the ground.

I am not sure why but when i got to the eave and put my foot out ready to fall is when i stopped. 

In my un-educated opinion, I believe it is because you placed all of your weight on fewer points of contact when you lifted one of your 4 paws.  I am not a crab-walker and believe in wearing the best-gripping shoes you can (www.cougarpaws.com) and placing all of your weight on the feet.  Move SLOWLY on a steep roof, and never walk back-wards.  If I am not roped up and it is a semi-steep roof, I would NEVER do it without cougar paws, and I walk with one hand ready to grab the ridge if I slip and the toes pointing down to the eve.

If you have to get down and there is not a valley to reduce the angle... then is when you realize you should have roped up.  It's not that big of a deal once you get used to it.  Where I am deployed right now I don't need it that often, but at least once a week I pull up to a house that is spooky and I get the rope out.  Again here's another thread with some amature photos http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/tabid/60/aff/28/aft/10829/afv/topic/Default.aspx

Posted By GWright on 05 Aug 2009 10:13 AM
As far as Bob, I guess you've never taken any criticism in your life. ...Not every comment here is an attack towards you guys character or intelligence. Take it for what its worth and stop being a baby.

I'm supposed to be criticized because...  I'm sorry, I forgot what I did wrong.

You are either a fairly new adjuster, like 2 years or less, or you are one of the ones that gives the rest of us a bad name.
Your profile is blank, or I would be more specific. 

Much more important than the ability to estimate & measure, is the ability to negotiate an amicable agreement with parties involved to a loss.  You just seem to stir up the pot, on this and other threads.

I hope you are more polite to your policyholders than you are to your peers. 

Posted By GWright on 05 Aug 2009 10:13 AM 
Sure you can work as an adjuster but thats it. If thats what you were going for then way to go buddy!!!! 

Have you noticed the name of this web site?  We are adjusters.  What is your issue?

 

I simply said do not mislead people to thinking there is a rope and harness certification. There is not one for insurance adjusters.

I just posted an image of one...  and it was good enough for my vendor.  They paid me well for working rope & Harness in Atlanta from April through June when the claims wrapped up.  If it's good enough for one of the largest insurance companies in the world, I say it is good enough. 

Why are we having this conversation?  What is your battle? 

GWright, A/K/A, Dudley DoWright. After having looked at your profile, you appear to be a meddler and mud kicker as opposed to being a CERTIFIED adjuster. I don't usually criticize people, but I don't like friends of mine criticized, unless due. I am fully aware of Bob's qualifications and they are excellent. What exactly are yours, certainly not diplomacy.

Common sense applies here. R&H training was not offered many years ago when I was climbing roofs that were more dangerous than my jumping out of an airplane at 15,000 feet, which I have done many times. I have been fortunate for quite a few years having not fallen off one roof, save one. I blame myself for that one fall, it was not applying common sense. Attitudes are an important part of this business, and that does include diplomacy. In my humble opinion, R&H should be required on all roof pitches in excess of 10/12 and 9/12 is borderline for safety. additional pay should be present while ascending and descending a roof pitch at 10/12 and above, especially two and three story, whether using rope or not. Of course we know that will not happen, but it should be as hazard pay. Do you think some of the vendors care whether you fall from a roof, no way. They just get upset because you are no longer productive as a result of that fall. Some do care, however.

Certification is not necessary for Rope and Harness in this occupation , but it is beneficial when you have a piece of paper that says you have passed an R&H class and are certified for it. Your basically have a knowledge to know how to climb a roof while applying the R&H training. Safety first, among all others.

Sorry Bob, I just could not drop this issue and if this allows a Smart A** comment from Dudley, let it be.

You and I both know your not going to quit reading on this site. Your commentary is welcome, I just suggest you use your words more carefully. Diplomacy is imporant, whether you wish to use it or not is your right. What are the ol timers expected to do, tell everyone we just started yesterday. Trader and I combined have almost a hundred years experience, or close to it. Do we waste that knowledge because someone is irritated by ol timers, I hardly think so. Most readers appreciate what advice is being given. Sometimes we get a little irked by some of the immature, irrational statements made. Who wouldn't.

Quote: Bottom line, I am safer today for taking the course. I have the correct equipment, and know how to use it. I'm not sure what all the bickering is about, US Staffing vs KSquared, certificate vs certification.

I think that pretty well says it all. Certified or certification, just words, but the real moment of truth is while your ascending and descending a roof that should require toe boards with rope and harness. There were many times, I mean many times that my heart rate would skyrocket while on a steep and cut up roof. Would I have taken the R&H training years ago, darn tootin I would have. I suggest to all of you that if you can afford this training, take and then apply it. Who you go to for this training is up to you. Just call and discuss it with them and tell them what your expectations are and if they cannot offer it, go to the one that fulfills the most of your expectations. Chuck Deaton uses the R&H and am sure an e-mail to him would deliver you some valuable information. Do whatever it takes to be safe.

Posted By DCave on 10 Aug 2009 12:26 PM
...Bob Ive seen you using the Gri Gri to rappel yourself down a roof after using the ascender to go up. Thats not a bad idea to use the Gri Gri for lowering yourself, just make sure your using some type of fall prevention device such as the rope grab when ascending in case of slippage. 

I don't know what diameter rope you use, but I have "zero" slippage with my Gri-Gri when I use the 11mm rope. I got a really good deal on some Static 11mm rescue rope made by Sterling, and have a ton of it so that is what I tend to use.  It is stiff as hell, and the Gri-Gri will stop on a dime with that rope when you pull on it.

In that other thread I did mention that with my smaller diameter 10.5mm line (BlueWater Static)  it would not "catch" as fast, but the Gri-Gri DOES catch (even with the smaller line) and act as a sort of "deadman" brake (like a seat-belt that stops you from moving forward).  The Gri-Gri will stop a fall without any other device.  I used it today, and have used the gri-gri by itself on many roofs.  Once I am up to the peak, I often switch over from the Petzl Ascender to the Petzl Gri-Gri to go down the other side, use the Gri-Gri to ascend back up, go back down to where I started, or explore alternate faces of the roof.  I'm working alone now on this deployment, so I tie-off to something on both sides of the house (usually a tree or porch pole).

I personally do not see the need for an additional rope grab "with" the Gri-Gri, but do on occasion use simply the rope grab by itself, especially if the roof is only moderately steep  (my rope-grab is a Gibbs).  I know there are various methods out there, and have observed training from a carrier that shows a 2 rope system - which most people in the field would consider overkill - but I would not take the position that it is "wrong" or that the use of a back-up device is wrong.  I just couldn't live with it everyday, I personally use one device at a time connected to one rope.

I have met adjusters who simply hold the rope in their hands, and that is where I draw the line.  You have to have some sort of mechanical device to hold you and keep you hands-free. 

Posted By DCave on 10 Aug 2009 12:26 PM
A couple of the pics you guys have posted on here cause some concern and I just wanted to share a few tips with ya.

Try not to cross load your caribiners when anchoring. This weakens the caribiner and can lead to failure of the device.

When anchoring the bowline on a bight knot is a great knot, however; my students had a very difficult time tying the knot without some slippage no matter what unique way I tried to explain it to them. 

Dave - was there something specific in one of my pics that caused you concern?  Did you see a caribiner set up incorrectly?  Did you see a knot tied improperly?

I know not to put the load sideways on a caribiner, it needs to be "longways"  not pulled sideways.

I must admit I had trouble remembering how to do the Bowline at first, and spent a long time working with it.  I was practicing those knots before Kevin's class, then Kevin showed us a very, very simple way to tie the "bowline on a bight" and I will never forget it.  I taught it to my ground assistant and watched him closely over the next 2 days, then for the next 3 months I didn't watch him because I knew he could tie it right. 

For me, it is the knot of choice.  From what I have read, mariners have relied on it for ages and it is considered a very strong knot.  For those who haven't tied one and are going to sleep, here is an animated version of tying the bowline on a bight.  There is more than one way to achieve this knot.  This animation is not exactly the way Kevin teaches it but the result is the same.  http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/Abowbit.html

Once someone has worked with this knot, the final result is unmistakable.  You know it when you see it, and know that it is tied right.  And it is very easy to untie, yet strong under load.  Here's http://www.animatedknots.com/bowlinebight/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Bob,

Nothing I saw in your pics indicated you were cross loading caribiners, that was just a point I was making. The figure eight equalizing knot (not the figure eight follow through) is the alternative anchor knot. It actually has a triple load vs. the bowlines 2. I also said the bowline was a great knot and never cut it down, was just passing on some info that I felt was beneficial. Like you stated new climbers have some degree of difficulty tying the bowline correctly.

Bob my only concern is that when your ascending the roof with only and ascender and you fall, what is going to catch you? The rope grab is designed to be a fall prevention device, not a climbing aid so I was just concerned that on a very steep roof, if you were going up and your hands slipped off the ascender, I think you'd be in trouble. Like I said I'm not out there with ya so I don't know exactly how your doing it, but from all your blogs you really seem to know your stuff. I'm just glad your out there applying it and being safe and setting a great example for the other adjusters.

 

In case anyone wanted to see the figure eight equalizing knot heres a link to a pic. If you don't like this knot theres no reason to slam me, just don't use it OK.

Posted By DCave on 11 Aug 2009 09:16 AM

...The rope grab is designed to be a fall prevention device, not a climbing aid so I was just concerned that on a very steep roof, if you were going up and your hands slipped off the ascender, I think you'd be in trouble.  
 

They are connected to my harness with about 16" long loop of webbing (or a "zorber" as you see in this photo I took of my ground-person Tony ascending a slope with Petzl Ascender in one hand, it is anchored to his harness.) 

If he let's go, slips, whatever, he will get some skinned elbows but is not going to move very far from the point where he was at.

I agree we should always be cautious, not run with scissors, etc.  But I am very comfortable with this process.

I use the 16" long loop when using the rope-grab as well, and here's a photo of that in action. 
This is Kevin at a class he gave before the newer facility

Posted By GWright on 11 Aug 2009 05:34 PM
WOW and they say...

Dude, live by your own rules.  

Read what you are preaching, read what you have posted on this forum over the past weeks since you started here, and live by your own rules.
 

I'm not usually the guy that will say something like this but I thin Gwright was picked on alot in School......That dude has some axe to grind!!

Gotcha.

I haven't spent much time studying the technical stuff.   

Rope goes through a rope-grab or ascender with almost no resistance.  So I can climb a 3 story ladder, make the transition from ladder-to-roof, and maintain tension on my line very easily.  If I did slip at those points  - well I would be in much better shape than someone who was not roped up.  I would only be moving a few feet before putting tension on the line.  Might screw up the rope, but I doubt it would break it (not the rope I use - or you use).

I gradually "ascend" to the first peak with the Petzl ascender, and do not use it to descend.  Once at the peak, I sit down and change hardware to something else like the Gri-Gri.  Or if the roof isn't too steep I will just use the rope grab - and as you point out it does not have the aggressive teeth that the ascender has. 

The beauty of the Petzl Ascender is that it can be connected to the rope so easily - much faster than connecting to a rope grab or feeding it through a Gri-Gri.  It is a tool that has it's use, but shouldn't be the only wrench in the tool box.

There is no such thing as "the perfect" process as all R&H inspections involve risk. R&H Inspection safety can only be measured in proximity to a fictional risk free process as in:

Climbing unasisted on a 10/12 gable roof involves a 18.67% potential for some form of injury.

Climbing a 10/12 gable roof using a 1/2" hemp rope involves a 6.37% potential for some form of injury.

Climbing a 10/12 gable roof using a synthetic rope with an ascender involves a 2.11% potential for some form of injury.

Climbing a 10/12 gable roof using two synthetic ropes, rope grab, Grigri & ascender involves a 1.43% potential for some form of injury. etc....

(Remember Just Opinions Here!)

Posted By Catsvstrained on 12 Aug 2009 10:11 AM

There is no such thing as "the perfect" process as all R&H inspections involve risk. R&H Inspection safety can only be measured in proximity to a fictional risk free process as in:

Climbing unasisted on a 10/12 gable roof involves a 18.67% potential for some form of injury.
 

Or more...  Here's a 10/12 that I was on today that acted like a 12/12 because the old shingles had loose granules.

 

10/12 Pitch

I had this nice low-pitch porch section to stage on. So I tied off to the chimney with webbing, thinking I would just walk up to the ridge, and use the rope to inspect the front slope.  I could not make it more than a few feet without slipping, and I don't weigh much, and had the best shoes money can buy.

You can actually see the "rubber" my cougar paws left on the roof today, just to the right of the rope.  That is as far as I could make it before slipping down, and I tried several times (it's not often you get to play with a steep roof, having the safety of almost level ground to slide down to). 

I have scaled roofs with this pitch in good condition, but this one just showered granules rather than provide traction.

This place had perfect chimneys, I was able to scamper up a few feet and toss a loop of rope over the top chimney. 
I would NEVER do that without that flat section below, I would have put a rope over the house and tied off front & back to something solid.

Here's how I got down.  My point - I could not physically get up this roof, in it's loose-granule condition without roping up.

if you are having trouble, and are at all scared going UP a roof, you will be TERRIFIED getting down.  
With this equipment, and some confidence in my knots, I had zero concern climbing this roof today.

Here's the Gri-Gri doing it's "automatic brake under tension" thing, with my smaller 10.5mm Static line that I use occasionally.  This thinner line behaves much different than the stiff 11mm line, it pulls through much faster when ascending and pulling out the slack in the line.  Much less work.  But there is a bit of delay when you put tension on it for the brake to kick in, it will let a foot or so of rope pass through before it "pinches" the line like you see here.

As I mentioned on the previous page, this same Gri-Gri will stop me on a dime with the thicker 11mm rope.  I am comfortable with either rope, you just have to get familiar with it.

No.  I am in Michigan right now, and this was a re-inspect of a January Ice-Dam claim. 
They wanted to have their roof checked out.

The wind damage you do see at the lower porch would not be on the radar screen for the Date of Loss.

There was a 70mph wind event that hit neighborhoods north of this house on June 25th that put a lot of trees into houses, and we did have totaled out roofs.  This place was on the edge of that storm and not hit very hard.

I  am trying not to be full of hate; however, I would estimate less than 5% of all catastrohe adjusters have the tools and training to be qualified to call themselves qualified. We need the ole red hand button on this topic. I also think part of this 5% had been picked up in the last 90 days, but I love coverage questions as I always lean some thing new.

I've been adjusting for almost 5 years and was thinking about the 2 story steep team...just as another way to stay working.  I have a friend working SF claims and they went to a seminar/show on a product called a Gris Gris.  Now he is his own 2 story steep team.   Never has to turn a claim back for not being able to get on the roof, and it adds 150 to his claims.  I think the Gris Gris costs about $75.  I would really be interested in having the demo and learning how to do it.  I also think if you say you can get on a steep roof, you'll be allowed to try!  Don't think anyone is going to hold a body back from that.  It is just a personal decision and comfort level.  I personally do not want to do any double pulls and never have.  I have been on the roof of a 2 story condo that was on pier and beams.  I carried my ladder through the house to the upstairs balcony.  It was  thrill to be up there, but hind sight being 20/20, I don't think it was too smart! 

Hey Bob, I too would like to know where you got the pitch guage.  I'm in the market for a new one.

Posted By RJortberg on 13 Aug 2009 11:47 AM
Bob- where did you get that pitch gauge? It's great that is has a level in the center. Makes it clear the pitch is measured right.

....For example, a friend of mine was dropped on a fall when the belayer was not diligent passing the rope through the gri gri. The belayer thought that a quick amount of rope going through the device would trigger the cam lock to hold the climber in place, so he was not holding onto the loose end of the rope. My friend fell to the ground, but fortunately, he was not too high up when he went down. 

1. Put this in your internet search: Tajima pitch gauge
I bought mine at a large specialty tool store in California for about $30 and love it.  When I just did a search, it looks like you can get it from Sears online and Ace online http://www.acetoolonline.com/Produc...200M  I also use the Craftsman Digital one (about $35) because the numbers photo better.

2. The guy likely had the rope running backwards in the Gri-Gri.  If you are using proper diameter rope (the device has stamping on the metal to only use rope between 10mm and 11mm) it WILL auto brake. 

The only time I have attention on holding the loose end of the rope is when I am descending down a roof, and using the "LEVER" to ease the "brake" from pinching the rope.  I will hold the loose end, to control the flow of rope through the device and make sure I know were the loose rope is so I don't step on it. 

I took these photos earlier in the day today, cuz we were focused on this topic.  Here you can see the rope I usually use (and yes it has some asphalt on it from USE).  This is 11mm line, and is the max size you can put in the Gri-Gri per the markings I am pointing to with my pen.  Folks, when I lean back on a steep roof with this stiff 11mm Static rope, the Gri-Gri will stop you in your tracks and you do NOT have to hold the other end of the line. 

You can go to a rock-climbing store and try the various rope, connect the gri-gri to it, and give it a "tug" while the Gri-Gri is attached you your belt with a caribiner.  The really flexible 10.5 mm rope will pull a foot or so through before it auto-brakes.  My 10.5 mm Static line is made by Bluewater.  the 11mm Rope rated for rescue work (Static, not Dynamic) will behave differently and stop on a dime when you tug on it.  Trusted brands include New England rope, PMI, and Sterling rope.  Climbing shops don't typically stock those rescue ropes.

Today I was on this ridge, and took this photo of the "changing of the guards" as you run the rope the other direction on the device.  I have this rope tied off at both ends of the house.  I pull out the slack for the direction I am going to, and give the line a "tug" to make sure it is threaded right through the Gri-Gri (you can visually "see" it auto-brake, and feel it stop you).  

The idea that you have to hold the loose end of the rope is totally false - if you have rope that is at the upper end of the allowable size for this device (11mm and rather stiff).  This is why you CAN use the device as a "self-belay" when you are by yourself on a roof inspection.

Posted By Tim_Johnson on 13 Aug 2009 04:11 PM
Why are the tennis shoes on the roof?

Cuz I changed into my Cougar Paws, left my other shoes on the roof.  I usually do that on the ground, but that flat roof was the place I staged.

Posted By DCave on 13 Aug 2009 12:28 PM

No I wouldnt really want to use a figure eight on the ground, only an ATC, gri gri or similar. What I'm saying is that when belaying yourself down a roof, the gri gri is not viewed in the climbing community as a good self-belaying device, only the figure eight (which i also stated would not work for adjusters as it does not have an auto stop). Bottom line, use a rope grab.

I respect your right to have an opinion, but totally disagree with you.
I realize that you no longer work for US Staffing, so i am just talking to you as a fellow human being, who has experience as an adjuster,  who I believe is now going back to working as a General Contractor (per your earlier post).  We all have an opinion, and I don't want what I say to come across as "fact".  It is my opinion.

I can tell you that I sat in a large room of people who had been doing 2-Story-Steep for a few weeks, and a trainer from the vendor I was working for came in from out of town because he had looked at 1000's of roofs (literally) on 2-Story-Steep.  Guess what - he advocated using the Gri-Gri as a self-belay device, and having the "ground person" be the ANCHOR for holding the rope (to a harness, rock-solid) but "you" adjust your movement on the roof by yourself, with the Gri-Gri. That is something we discussed on this other thread: http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...fault.aspx

When the trainer said that, it totally blew me away.  I really liked the idea of self-belay, and had done it with a rope-grab but never with a Gri-Gri even though I had brought one with me (but hadn't been using it up to that point).

I started using it, and did so every day for the next 2 months on that deployment.  I will never go back, it is my weapon of choice.  Today I used it when ascending, and descending.  I hooked it up right at the eve, before getting off the ladder (I don't always use the Petzl Ascender - but I do if I am going up a 32' ladder for sure - I will connect up at the ground level).

You don't have to use a Gri-Gri for self-belay, and that's fine.  To say it is not viewed as a good self belay device by the climbing comunity - well - I don't know where you are doing your research.  But I wouldn't care if a group of rock climbers had that exact quote, it wouldn't change a thing that I do.

Posted By Ray Hall on 13 Aug 2009 05:16 PM

... I would estimate less than 5% of all catastrohe adjusters have the tools and training to be qualified to call themselves qualified. We need the ole red hand button on this topic. I also think part of this 5% had been picked up in the last 90 days, but I love coverage questions as I always lean some thing new.

Ray, I know you are a very good adjuster.  And that you don't climb steep roofs, and that is fine with me - and your clients.

Lot's of people get up on roofs that they shouldn't.  Some of them fall. 
Our focus here is to give them an alternative to "braving it" without a safety net.

I view the climbing gear as the solution to a huge problem.  I embrace it as a good thing.  We can squabble about what device, and airing that stuff out is good because that's how I learn about a device I never heard of before - or someone else hasn't.

This is the roof I looked at today (yes Tim, I bought it) and I assure you this would not show show up on photos taken from the eve.  Maybe you could sort of see it from where you are standing, but the photos won't show the damage well.  These shingles were blown off near the ridge 25' up, and the roof was so deteriorated the whole roof just looked like garbage. 

These photos, and my wide angle photos showing where I had marked in chalk will make the file stand on it's own.  I don't have to convince someone that waaaay up there there were some covered damage shingles but you can't see them in the photo I send with my report.  Sometimes you can see them, and what I am saying is sometimes you have to get closer.

And sometimes you have to get up on the roof to properly measure it - when it is really cut up with multi level eves, multi-story sections (architect on drugs).

I'm still in Clare, waiting for the go ahead as a grounds person Bob. To sweeten the deal i can promise my teacher lunch that day.

Any day, from dusk till dawn i'm ready.

I thought about you today- once I pulled up to that house. I really didn't know I was going to have to rope up on it untill I pulled up. It had main slopes that were 9/12 and these wicked 12/12 extensions:

I did not see this missing tab on this "non-repairable" right side of that extension until I got up there.  This justified buying the roof, I was able to find damage on all slopes.

I tied off front and back, working alone today.

Bowline on a Bight, you tie that first, THEN run the webbing through.

As I learned from Kevin, the webbing knot is called a water knot, and mountain climbers trust their lives with it.  I have overhand knots tied on either side of the water-knot, just as a backup but have NEVER seen a water-knot slip.  and it is easy to untie, like the bowline. 

Bob:

The hand on the loose end of the rope comment about the gri gri is in reference to the ground belayer- not the climber.

When belaying, Petzl is explicit in their instructions for use and in their video that hands be on both sides of the rope as it feeds through the gri gri. The following link is Petzl's website about the gri gri:

http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/bel...s-0/grigri

When the gri gri is on your harness when on the roof, I agree you do not need to have hands on the loose end of the rope. It locks out harder the more you lean against the rope. Then you unweight and release the tension, and off you go, moving the gi gri up the rope.

I do not know if my friend's belayer had the rope going in the gri gri in the wrong direction. I do know that the belayer was not holding the loose end of the rope, and my friend (a very experienced climber) blames his belayer's  not holding the loose end of the rope for the fall.  Maybe its different with a smaller diameter sport climbing rope.  I don't know what the cause, but Petzl issued a new video to address the proper way to belay with the device - using two hands.

It seems to me the last thing the ground person should do would be to let the rope run free through the gri gri without holding the loose end of the rope.  In any case, I think we are both agreeing how great the device is. I'm going to try it against a rope grab for comparison purposes.

Thanks also about the pitch gauge. That's a good tip.

Rich



 

Posted By RJortberg on 14 Aug 2009 12:38 AM

Bob:

The hand on the loose end of the rope comment about the gri gri is in reference to the ground belayer- not the climber.

When belaying, Petzl is explicit in their instructions for use and in their video that hands be on both sides of the rope as it feeds through the gri gri. The following link is Petzl's website about the gri gri: 
 

Gotcha, and that makes sense.  I did some training with Kevin (of K-Squared, now known as Catastrophe Career Specialties) as a ground person and can relate to that.  When you are standing on the ground, your total focus is controling that rope (with both hands).  You take in the slack as the guy is coming toward the ridge on the other side, and you let out rope when they need it.

Again just my opinion - the Gri-Gri is a lousy tool for THAT job.  It's not what it was designed to do really - I mean it sort of is - but a roof is a lot different than someone climbing one of those indoor sport wall things.  We are not gradually workinig our way up some difficult climb, with a helper on the ground gradually pulling in the slack on the rope.  We need to move around, looking for hail hits or other damage, measuring "how long is that ventilated ridge" (there was one under that blue tarp yesterday).

Kevin's weapon of choice for the ground belay person is the Air Traffic Controller.  Again, with 2 hands, it makes perfect sense.  You control that rope, and it moves in and out of the ATC much faster than it will through the Gri-Gri.  That is important when you are standing on the roof and you tell the guy on the ground that you need him to pull in about 10 feet of slack cuz it's time for you to move up closer to the ridge now. 

Here's a clickable link: http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/bel...s-0/grigri

When I watched that video, I could see how the rope they are using FLIES through the device compared to the fat-stiff rope I typically use.  It's like they have a shoe-lace going through it compared to 11mm rescue (Static) rope.  I have to really work to get the rope pulled through as I walk up a slope, to take in the slack.  When I pause and lean back, it does exactly what they say here: 

• Self-braking system: if the rope suddenly comes under tension (e.g. in a fall), the cam pivots to pinch the rope, thus helping the belayer stop the climber's fall

Posted By RJortberg on 14 Aug 2009 12:38 AM

I do not know if my friend's belayer had the rope going in the gri gri in the wrong direction. I do know that the belayer was not holding the loose end of the rope, and my friend (a very experienced climber) blames his belayer's  not holding the loose end of the rope for the fall.  Maybe its different with a smaller diameter sport climbing rope.  I don't know what the cause, but Petzl issued a new video to address the proper way to belay with the device - using two hands. 
 

Let's look at the photo I took of the Gri-Gri "opened up" on the previous page.  everything is nice and "rounded" inside.  No hard edges.  It is almost like a pulley-wheel inside.

One of the sides of the Gri-Gri has a smooth rounded "lip" along one edge that you can see in the photos.  That is where you place the rope against as you control the movement of the rope (if you want to).

My point...  when you are up on a roof using this device for self-belay,  the ONLY friction that the Gri-Gri is going to provide is if the ROPE is the proper diameter and CAUSES the spring loaded pivot to MOVE and thus PINCH on the rope, to CONTROL it's movement.

Just the small difference between my 11mm rope and 10.5 milimeter rope is HUGE in terms of how fast the spring loaded arm moves and causes the movement of the rope to be halted.  Any rope much smaller than my 10.5 is going to run through that thing like Sh*t throgh a goose.

If you have ever worked with an ATC you know that the free hand will pull the "slack" side of the rope at 90 degrees to the device, and the friction created against the edge of the device will halt the rope.  Pronto.  The diameter of the rope does not affect that process, but it will make a huge difference in the Gri-Gri.

People who have not worked with these devices will be sort of "spinning" reading this...  but think of it in terms of putting a 22 caliber bullet in a 25 caliber gun barrel.  It's just a little too small.  The diameter of rope is critical to how this device behaves, and you will be able to test it and get a good feel for it on the ground.  You give that rope a tug, and as the quote above says, the Gri-Gri self braking thing should happen.

From my limited experience - you can hold the "loose end" of the smaller diameter rope and slow it down a bit.  That WILL cause the spring-loaded arm thing on the Gri-Gri to move and "pinch" on the rope to slow or stop its movement.  Personally I would never want to rely on that when I am doing a self-belay on a roof.  So maybe this thread will help out the next guy who is choosing his gear.

I am not an expert at this, but have been "shown the way" by people who know what they are doing.  The people who climb rocks use "dynamic" rope, that will "give" a little if you fall a long distance, then hit the end of the rope.  We should be using what the rescue people use, "static" rope.  It tends to be more stiff.  Brands vary from one to another as well, in terms of how stiff the rope is, and how it behaves through these devices.  I can visualize non-static rope, that is at the smaller end of the acceptable diameter going through that Gri-Gri for your friend, and yes, the other guy better have his hand on the loose end to CREATE THAT TENSION that the device needs in order to function.

 

Bob:

I have an email out to my friend for more detail about how the fall happened w/ the gri gri, and I'll post what he says when I get a return. I have not used the ATC, but I do know what you mean about the friction moving the rope through the gri gri. Since climbers are ascending much more slowly than we are walking, the friction is probably not as big of a deal to the belayer, and I can see how the ITC would be the better tool for the grounds person for adjusting. Thanks also for the good pics.

Rich

Posted By JimAustin on 14 Aug 2009 12:30 PM
Diagram 8. Rappeling
This device provides maximum
security for rappels up to 50 m.
Longer descents are not advised
(risk of device overheating).

Do you have any idea how far 50 meters is?  That is the full length of my 160 foot rope.  If you rappel that distance, using anything, it is gonna get hot.  You run that much rope quickly through a figure 8, or Air Traffic Controller, and they are also gonna get hot from the friction produced.  Here is a video example of that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj-E...MmHU 

You would compare that scenario to me walking rather slowly up and down the face of a roof.  If I fall-rappel 2 stories that is 20 feet, but in reality I would be "stopped" sooner than 20 feet, because of the "auto brake" action of the Petzl Gri-Gri.  So the 160 feet (50 meter) thing is not at all important to me.  I have never noticed my Gri-Gri even warm up.
 

Posted By JimAustin on 14 Aug 2009 12:30 PM
... I for one am gonna stay away from the GriGri when rapelling.

Adjusters actually do not rapel.  I do know one crazy guy who won't bring a big enough ladder, and is good with a rope.  He gets it over the roof somehow, "climbs" the rope (Ex-military).  And he does rappel down - but most of us use a ladder.

I realize that your instructor was probably very, very familiar with climbing, and gear.  Looks like he doesn't do roofs... 
With the diameter of rope I use, on a daily basis, I never need to hold the other end of the rope for the auto-brake to kick in.  Also keep in mind that people who go out in the wilderness and climb rocks almost always use DYNAMIC rope.  It looks the same as the rope rescue people use on the outside, both are encased with the "mantle" part of the kern-mantle rope.  That is what you see, the outer part. 

The fibers that are the true strength of the rope are protected inside, they are the "kern" of the rope.  Dynamic rope strands inside the "kern" are slightly "coiled" so that if someone falls off a rock, they are going to fall straight down until whatever point they last used to "tie-off".  when they hit the end of that - "Whacko" they get the jolt at the end of the rope.  so the little coils in the small fibers give them a bit of cushion, and they will have a few feet of extra movement rather than hitting the end of the whip. 

Here's a youtube.com video that shows climbing rope being made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyDH...A and they describe the rope as "strong but stretchy".  Dynamic ropes have a different "feel" to them (more flexible) than the "static" line used in rescue work.  We use static line, because we don't want to fall off a roof and have the line "stretch" down to the ground. 

Our static rope tends to be more stiff, and it will behave different in a Gri-Gri that is very sensitive to the kind of rope run through it.  It's not gonna pull through the thing like a limp noodle, it is gonna kick that brake in when you lean back.  From his background and experience, your trainer is 100% correct.  From my experience with rope properly matched up to the Gri-Gri for ROOF inspection, I don't have any of the grief he is talking about.  Watch that video that Rich Jortberg links to at the top of this page.  The rope we should be using will not pull through the Gri-Gri that easily. 

Posted By DCave on 14 Aug 2009 10:10 AM
Not sure what the whole "I believe you are working for a GC now and not affiliated with US Staff" is all about. Why would that matter anyway?

I openly state I am not an expert.   The only reason I brought it up is some people may think you are coming from a place of active instruction in the field of Rope & Harness (as you had been, for a period of months).  I chose my words carefully to be polite.  When I read the following quote - I just had to laugh because I am using the Petzl Gri-Gri as a self-belay device frequently.  I am totally comfortable with it, and so is another member who has posted on this thread.  And the trainer to one of the largest group of 2 Story-Steep teams ever assembled (24 people, 12 teams of 2).  You are steering the comminity away from it because of some "climbing community" opinion.

Posted By DCave on 13 Aug 2009 12:28 PM
...No I wouldnt really want to use a figure eight on the ground, only an ATC, gri gri or similar. What I'm saying is that when belaying yourself down a roof, the gri gri is not viewed in the climbing community as a good self-belaying device, only the figure eight (which i also stated would not work for adjusters as it does not have an auto stop). Bottom line, use a rope grab.

I was on a 14/12 today, and would not have wanted to descend that thing using a Rope-Grab.  I have done it before, and know I'm not gonna fall off.  It's just a bit of an "all or nothing" when you push against the cam to release it.  I like them for moderately steep roofs, because they are so easy to control and fast to move rope in and out of.  Anything over 10/12 or spooky loose granules, and I will prefer the "hydraulic" feel and control that a Gri-Gri has when descending with stiff 11 mm rope.

When you say "climbing community" I would consider that to be rock climbers.  I have spoken with a number of them, they do some terrains similar to a roof, they rappel down vertical faces, they have issues that are similar but not the same as ours.

I realize you have done some instruction with the Gri-Gri, and used it personally.  I am not trying to force it on anyone. I do consider the quote mis-information for someone doing roof inspections.  Again just my opinion, as well as the vendor on-site manager for the 2 Story-Steep team I was deployed on that personally used the Gri-Gri for self belay.  To each his own.

to end on a happy note - I just read your Xactimate Sketch post to help another adjuster and DO respect your experience.  I also have been using Xm8 for a long time (16 years) and truly believe that you are gifted in that area. 

 

Posted By RJortberg on 14 Aug 2009 11:02 PM
...While my belayer worked with the tangled rope, a small loop of rope in the tangle snagged the Gri Gri's lever and released the Gri Gri's grip on the rope. Without either hand in a belay grip on the rope below the Gri Gri, my belayer dropped me to the ground in an uncontrolled fall.

I see.  That explains his fall - and as a side note we do not tend to have piles of tangled rope on a roof.  Typically I have it tied on opposite ends of the house, front and back yard, simply running up & over with 20 to 30 feet of slack so I can manuever around.

And he is also using 10mm rope which is the minimum size allowed for the Gri-Gri.
That site you linked to at the top of this page has a video that shows rope going in & out of the device MUCH faster than my 11mm rope, or even my 10.5 rope could possibly move through a Gri-Gri. 

The thing turns from a Rabit to a Turtle depending on the rope you use - keep that in mind folks.

We are not talking about the rope you might find at a hardware or building supply store. Check out this video on youtube.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WkO...I and if that link goes dead you can just go to youtube and do a search for "Sterling rope how its made".  Also this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyDH...#160;which I linked to earlier. It has a generic title "how it's made - rope".

I went overboard and bought 6 lengths of it, 160' long each when I thought you had to use a 2 rope system, and considered multi-story height and how much rope I would need.  I was wrong, I believe a single rope is enough, commonly sold in 50 meter lengths (164 feet) or 60 meters (196' which is likely more than you will need). 

You can buy it by the foot in shorter lengths, but you will find situations where a 100' length is not enough.  I have not yet had to attach multiple lengths of rope.  As mentioned previously, the rope we should be using is the same as search & rescue folks use (static rope) and reputable brands include (not limited to) New England, PMI, and Sterling rope.

 

Posted By DCave on 17 Aug 2009 11:37 AM
...I completely understand why the gri gri is much more user friendly on the way down a steeper roof. Heres my question. When your going up the 14/12 are you still going to continue to use the ascender as a fall prevention device or have you changed your mind about that and decided to use the rope grab instead ...

I was trying to quote something from my last post, and managed to overwrite it.  Oh well.  For me personally, I will likely be just using the Gri-Gri for everything.  I did use it on that 14/12 the other day (once on the other side) to ascend back up, and manuever around. 

Here's an older photo of me on a 14/12 with a Gri-Gri that is mounted close to the harness with a caribiner.  To ascend, you pull yourself up on the rope then simply pull the slack through the Gri-Gri with the other hand.  It acts like a one-way valve if you have the right rope running through it.

Yesterday I connected the Gri-Gri at ground level for this simple 1 story 10/12 garage.  It wasn't that much work to pull the rope through the Gri-Gri as I climbed the ladder.  Usually I would pull rope more easily through a Petzl Ascender as I climb a ladder, but if I am going to use the Gri-Gri to manuever around once on the roof, may as well just connect one device rather than swap around.

There was an area of obvious missing tabs, but what you couldn't tell from the "eve level" was that the entire slope was compromised by force of wind lifting areas and pulling the fastener through the shingles.  I was noticing that it was like pulling on a blanket, several rows would seem to lift a bit from the deck when pulled on rather than everything staying down tight. 

This is one of the reasons why it helps to get close to see what is going on.

Posted By jesseb on 03 Sep 2009 07:26 PM
I wonder, what do you anchor off to if there is nothing on the ground?

There is always something.

I have yet to find a house that did not have at least one VERY substantial bush that I could wrap my webbing around the base several times (like you see here) and tie off to that.  

I visualize trying to yank the bush out of the ground by myself... and it is a very well established, substantial bush, I don't hesitate to tie off to them.  I will go for the big trees first, but I'd rather tie off to a bush than go up without a safety net.  At a casual glance the trimmed hedge may not look like much, but often you see 5" diameter base and very anchored to the ground. 

Similar to the rock climbers, you can anchor to multiple points and use several separate lengths of webbing so you aren't relying on just one.  I carry 6 pieces of webbing with me at all times. 10' lengths are about right for most applications and I keep some longer & some shorter ones.

You can also tie off to fence posts, and if they look questionable - rotten you may want to tie off to several of them to your rope.  You create the bowline-on-a-bight FIRST, then put the webbing through that loop and secure with a "water knot".  This photo shows overhand knots on either side of the water knot, but I have never seen one slip.

Well thank you Jim Gary for a good topic for labor day weekend. I thought this may stir up some action. I recommend some one take this from me and run with it. Find out who is purchasing the ground augers and follow these adjusters around and if they damaged the lawn, and they will be screwing this monster in the virgin soil with perfect ph contamined with zink from the galvinazation process, plus the surface scar.Encourage the Homeowner to  turn in a claim under the Homewners Policy for the loss. No deductible applies as this is additional insurance.

Then find out who the bore hogs general liability is with and file a liability claim against him/her. If the Homowners  carrier ask about the coverage its very straight foward in my opine under the HO-3 as a" risk of loss". No way was it" intended or expected from the stand point of the insured". If its a HO-2 fall back to" vandaliam or malicious mischief". If the Homeowners carrier subrogates against the General Liability carrier and both are members of AF (Arbitration Forums) recommend the respondent cross file as the cause was not correct in the applicants filing and should be dismissed with prejudice, because:

This claim should be filed under the adjusters vehicle coverage as this is a classic "loading and unloading" claim.

OK now we need all the old and new pundits not to make fun at my expense..... oops experience. Have a good weekend ever one, and you working folks take some time off and chime in also.

Aw Jim don,t be depressed. I will give you half the sredit for such a good topic. Darn it all the regular pundits seem to have started a long holiday. We need some of the adjuster school input.

Posted By BobH on 14 Aug 2009 09:21 PM

Adjusters actually do not rapel.  I do know one crazy guy who won't bring a big enough ladder, and is good with a rope.  He gets it over the roof somehow, "climbs" the rope (Ex-military).  And he does rappel down - but most of us use a ladder.

 

Sounds a bit like my experience with this stuff.    My former experience was military.    I usually bring a big enough ladder and anything over 9/12, i normally do a test area from the ladder-- i recently ran into a guy who wants me to check over his copper finials on a straight gable roof though -- roof is marginally totalled -with no perceptible damage on the guttering.  12/12 pitch

After 2 conversations with the guy, i am fuming mad -- (not overtly to the insured) ---  so i purchased a 50 meter Sterling rope , harness, Petzl ascender, figure 8 for descending (i do not intend to stop going down )   and a Tribloc as backup ascencion device, and a pair of Cougar Paws (which i have never felt a need to use before) .   I have 100 feet of parachute cord attached to a tennis ball that i throw over the ridge and then drag the rope up and over with that.     Compared to my military experience (including Air Assault school) - this stuff is NICE.  no more uncomfortable swiss seats .    And if you guys know what this stuff costs, you know all this gear was not a "light impulse purchase"   oh -- but unlike 17 years ago when i was in the Army,  i now weigh 265#

I played around on a 5/12 roof to get confidence in my bowlines and how the equipment works -- then i tackled my brother's 9 pitch 2 story roof -- and actually felt froggy enough to rappell down the gable end.   In all honesty, the cougar paws make short work out of a 9/12 roof on their own -- but at this stage of the game -- i am learning the equipment -

so today was my real test -- the  12/12  roof on my workshop. (photo below) straight gable design - no kickout - no place to stage -- just step off the ladder and haul yourself up -------  i couldn't do it.   I  would honestly rather rappell out of a Blackhawk than scale this roof-- and my insured's roof is similar (but with valley access on one slope)

I really need access to a 10/12 to work up to it a little more,  but i dont really have time - for the particular claim in question.  - i can see how that Petzl Ascender really will tear up the rope if you slip,  but from looking at my rope -- it looks like the ridge possibly does more damage.   I would probably feel safer on the ascent with a kinetic rope attached in a 2 rope system, but i would feel the need to tie a stop-knot every 10 feet or so.  

      I have no intention of pursuing a spot on a rope-harness team -- i just need the equipment and the confidence to use it for the occasional problem claim

 

Funny -- the roof doesn't look nearly as bad in this picture as it does from the top of the ladder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted By Doug on 07 Sep 2009 11:12 PM
what do you fellas do about the gutters?

Try setting your anchor out away from the home far enough where the rope does not roll up and over the gutter if possible, rather just parralells the roof pitch. Also if you are using the small Petzyl ascender, just a small metal saddle with a caribener to pinch the line, that does damage the rope. Try Ebay, there are several models that do not damage the rope, and are less expensive than the retail stores. Also google "arborists supply" for other options.

JWG

Posted By Doug on 07 Sep 2009 11:12 PM
Another note about this steep roof work --- what do you fellas do about the gutters? Do you just roll any gutter damage into the claim as a necessary part of the inspection , --- or is there something i'm missing --- in my previous post - i mentioned my "girth" -- and i can sometimes crush a gutter section just with the ladder -- i can only imagine the force put on them from a rope being used to support a 265 pounders roof top antics

I have had one of these "Ladder Max" for 2 years and love it.  Most "stand off's" are made for painters, to push against a wall.  This is made to connect with a roof, doesn't matter how steep.  You don't see it in my recent photos cuz I had to fly out with short notice, but I have worked with it & it is rock solid.  Kevin posted this on another thread, he also had one at a class I took this year.  They add some weight to the end of the ladder (if it's a long ladder) when staging, but they literally make your ladder behave like it has 4 legs rather than standing up on it's hind legs.  Very stable.

so today was my real test -- the  12/12  roof on my workshop. (photo below) straight gable design - no kickout - no place to stage -- just step off the ladder and haul yourself up -------  i couldn't do it. 

---------------------------

You need to CLAMP THE LADDER really well to the roof.  I use clamps to fascia, whatever (12" deep quick-clamps) and strap the ladder down TIGHT.  When you trust that it is solid, it's a whole different ball game stepping onto a steep pitch (assuming you are roped up - aren't gonna slip down to the ground).

I have also had one of these for a couple years, and it works well with the ladder max (both together)

You can order both the ladder max and the "walk through" at www.bigrocksupply.com or wherever you find them.

Jim Gary Said:
Try setting your anchor out away from the home far enough where the rope does not roll up and over the gutter if possible, rather just parralells the roof pitch.

---------------------------------

I agree with Jim.

If you anchor your rope to something that isn't "straight down" you won't touch the gutter. (also note the ladder is tied tight to a gutter nail, red webbing left side of photo).  That is black foam tape on the ladder, keeps from slipping, scraching gutter.

and pulling the rope over the ridge is NOT going to hurt your rope.  the outer wrap is just protection for the real strength of the rope inside (the "kern" of Kern-mantle rope).  See the links I posted a couple pages ago and watch how climbing rope is made.  You are just scuffing up the outer mantle, and getting some asphalt on it like the one in the photo I posted of a bowline tied to a porch in the last page.  Gives its some character, shows you've been around...

I wonder if this above photo can be taken a bit out of context, Bob, because I know you like some slack behind you when you are on the climbing end of the roof. That is, if you are climbing up a slope, you want slackness below you so you can move around the roof. It also makes getting off the ladder easier because you can attach your ascender/ gri gri to the rope either before you climb up the ladder or part way when you feel you are getting exposed. The point is that when coming off the ladder onto the roof, I have full tension on the rope so that I know I'm fully supported at that point. Looking at the ladder and the tight nature of the rope in this picture, i wonder if you had pulled a lot of the slack up onto the roof with you? Or were you getting ready to go down the other side?

I also found that if I do not secure the ladder to the roof like Bob mentions, I have knocked the ladder over when I'm dragging the slack around to go to another part of the roof. Not a pretty site seeing the ladder tumble over, but at least I could use the rope to get all the way down.

Posted By RJortberg on 08 Sep 2009 10:31 PM

...Looking at the ladder and the tight nature of the rope in this picture...

It's just a photo - dunno what could be taken out of context... 
showing what Jim said about anchoring to something a bit further out so you don't pull the gutters with the rope.

I had already gone over the ridge and down the other side, away from my ladder.

That photo was taken as I pulled my way back up, near the ridge, using that tree as an anchor.  Rope secured to something on each end of the house. 

Example of similar view, showing the ridge

This whole BS about walking ever inch of a roof is just that BS. If the adjuster makes the right call, why does he have to carry a load of ladders like a chimney sweep. Most cities oin the US have a roof inspection service for a very nominal fee. Usally less than $200.00. I could settle 40-50 roof claims per day if I could do them from home. It sure would not cost $300-$400 per roof.

Posted By Ray Hall on 11 Sep 2009 09:37 PM
This whole BS about walking ever inch of a roof is just that BS.
.... Most cities oin the US have a roof inspection service for a very nominal fee. Usally less than $200.00

-----------------------
I'm sure Doug appreciates your helpful suggestions on how to get his job done...

I am paid to inspect roofs, and would be embarrassed to call a "roof inspection service".

No one is saying to inspect every inch - and if you don't want to get on steep roofs you don't have to.
Your comment adds nothing to this thread.

Posted By okclarryd on 11 Sep 2009 06:16 PM
I am SO glad that you guys are willing to do this crap. But, I wonder if it is truly necessary? 

----------------------------

I don't make that decision. The carrier I am working for is having me look at 2 roofs this weekend that were not inspected closely, and re-assigned to me after the measurements or scope by previous adjuster were disputed. 
Not every file will re-open, not every roof needs to be walked.
 

Posted By BennyBulger on 12 Sep 2009 12:08 AM 
... Otherwise you guys that want to do things the old way go ahead and the rest of us will leave you in the dust closing files.

And I will clean up the mess left by "run & gun" adjusting.  If you don't think there is some guesswork when peering at a roof from the eve, you haven't been doing this very long.

I live in a home with a 12/12 and I've been on it several times with no rope and harness, but I sure don't like it.

-------------------------------
I won't get on a 12/12 without a rope, and there is a reason why you "don't like it".  It isn't safe. 
That's the whole point of this thread.

Posted By Amart on 04 Aug 2009 08:23 PM
If the training you offer is half as good as the posts you make here, i do not expect many disappointed customers.

I think safety is one of the most overlooked things in this industry. I remember during Ike there were a few roofs i did not feel comfortable climbing and was very embarrassed by that, not wanting to call my claims manager i just decided to be a big boy and step up to the plate. One house was a 2-story on a slab, i put my ladder up by the valley and started my accent. I quickly ran up the valley and start walking the roof taking measurements. On the way back down however i decided it would be best to distribute my weight over both feet and hands. After arriving at the eave after a slow slide, i had tear in my pants and my hands were torn up and bleeding. I am not sure why but when i got to the eave and put my foot out ready to fall is when i stopped.

The next day after a long night of scrubbing my hands to get the particles out of my hand i decided i would get a pair of Cougar paws and not climb a roof i was not comfortable with. That day i had another roof about like the previous, i decided to call in a ladder assist. When i roofer arrived i was surprised to hear that he would not climb it either. So i got all my measurements via footprint and took my ladder around all the eaves to get a view of the damages.

Never again will i put my life on the line for a paycheck when i KNOW there IS A BETTER WAY, but was just too busy or lazy or whatever. When you fall off that roof and break something or worse, it will not make a difference to your injuries as to why you did not get training. They will not heal any faster or be any less severe because you were busy.

Well Said, if you like I have the calculations per pitch to use when measuring footprints, using these calculations I am always right there on actual Squares. I have the formulas available for anyone who desires them, Just email me, and ill reply my email is restes@claimsmg.com

Posted by Bob Harvey on 14 Aug 2009 
...I was on a 14/12 today, and would not have wanted to descend that thing using a Rope-Grab.  I have done it before, and know I'm not gonna fall off.  It's just a bit of an "all or nothing" when you push against the cam to release it.  I like them for moderately steep roofs, because they are so easy to control and fast to move rope in and out of.  Anything over 10/12 or spooky loose granules, and I will prefer the "hydraulic" feel and control that a Gri-Gri has when descending with stiff 11 mm rope.

I recently made a discovery that I wanted to share with the community - but first lets look at some Rope-Grab photos

Here's a Gibbs rope grab demonstrated by Kevin Kramer during a class I attended.
I bought a Gibbs, liked it, but found I was using the Gri-Gri more.

Here's a Petzl Rescuescender. Very similar to the Gibbs, I like both of them.
I sold my Gibbs to an adjuster in need.  I bought this as a replacement grab to check out.

The Petzl Rescuescender is well made, and the release pin was designed to work with gloves on.
(see next post)

(continued)

Posted by Bob Harvey on 14 Aug 2009
...I would not have wanted to descend that thing using a Rope-Grab.  ...It's just a bit of an "all or nothing" when you push against the cam to release it.

The "figure 8" has been around forever, it's job is to create friction - perfect for when you push against the Rope-Grab cam for descending a steep roof slope. 

If you are using a "figure 8" by itself, you are forced to constantly maintain control of the rope by holding the loose end.  The combination of a "figure 8" with a rope-grab will HALT you if hands are off the rope. 

Notice that it is on a SEPARATE CARABINER, allowing you to easily connect-disconnect the friction device.  You don't want the friction when climbing the slope.

Having a 2nd carabiner attached to your harness also makes it easier to tie-off for safety when you need to change the direction of the Rope-Grab for going down the other side of the roof (assuming your rope is tied to something on BOTH sides of the house, like to a tree front & back yard)

These photos were taken on "Bob's test hill" which is a great place to experiment and get comfortable with your gear.
Confucious say: "Falling on your ass - better than falling off roof"

Thanks Bob:

If a person likes to use a figure 8, they should consider using a rescue figure 8 instead. I have one like this, and it has ears on it that allow one to tie off their rope so that they can work hands free.  www.specialforces.com/store/catalog..._Ears.html
 

The devices like the Gri Gri still work better in my opinion.   There is another one out by Trango called the Cinch:

www.dynamicearth.net/index.php

This review link says that it is better than the Gri Gri because it feeds rope through better / easier.  I have not tried it, but for $60, it is worth a try in my mind. 

Posted By RJortberg on 01 Nov 2009 10:28 PM
...The devices like the Gri Gri still work better in my opinion.  

Yeah - and the only reason I started looking at the rope-grabs again is my rope is soooo stiff (Sterling 11mm static).   I like the Sterling rope because it has a tightly woven sheath that doesn't "fluff up" when pulled over asphalt shingles.  But it is a chore ascending & pulling it through the Gri-Gri. 

As I have mentioned before, my other static rope is very flexible (BlueWater static 10.5mm) but it started fraying right away when pulling it over a couple roofs.  I was at an REI a few weeks ago and they had a static rope made by PMI called "EZ Bend" 11mm that may be a good example of a rope that pulls more easily through the Gri-Gri.

If a person likes to use a figure 8, they should consider using a rescue figure 8 instead. I have one like this, and it has ears on it that allow one to tie off their rope so that they can work hands free.

That is what I was looking for when I had this idea of adding friction to a rope-grab for descending.  But I had limited time at my last deployment, and an REI down the street had the basic "8" for $14.95 and the other one was out of stock.

I would not personally want to use the "figure 8" by itself, but if you were using it alone - then yeah the ability to tie-off to the "ears" would be priceless.

My plan was to just add some control to descending when the rope grab is released.  On a 12/12 it is pucker-city when you push in the cam and feed the rope through your hands.  The "figure 8" added that bit of control I was looking for in that situation.

I did order one of these last week from Amazon.com and will let you know how I like it:

The Petzl Pirana Descender has a variety of ways to feed the rope for varying friction.

There is another one out by Trango called the Cinch:
www.dynamicearth.net/index.php  
This review link says that it is better than the Gri Gri because it feeds rope through better / easier. I have not tried it, but for $60, it is worth a try in my mind.

Thanks for posting that link - I was also curious about that device over the past few months. Just looked at the video, then the FAQ's where they say this:

Q: Can I use the Cinch with my static ropes?
A: We don’t recommend the use of the Cinch with static ropes. It does not release and
lower consistently and this use has been known to damage the release lever.

And the link to the pictorial instructions says this:

(..Dynamic Rope Only) ... Do not use the Cinch with static ropes.
--------------------------
The video shows very flexible rope, looks like dynamic rope (typical for rock-climbers) which is more "stretchy" and flexible than the "static" rope that we use (and search-rescue people use).

Good review. I'll use some of the money saved not buying the Cinch to buy you lunch sometime. I do not use a static rope, but I might try one sometime.

After working with the rope-grab + a friction device (the figure-8 and my new Petzl Pirana) and then going back to the Gri-Gri, I still prefer the Gri-Gri unless the roof is only moderately steep.

But I'm glad I worked out a solution for a controlled descent with rope-grab on a very steep roof.  It's a personal decision and I think anyone working with Rope & Harness will evolve something they are comfortable with.

If a ground auger is not the way to tie off suggestions of what will work will be appreciated.

Hi Jim, actually that issue has been pretty "aired out" previously on this thread (and it may have been touched on during this other thread http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...spx )

I have brought those augers with me but never had to use them. Seems there is always some very substantial hedge/bush to wrap webbing around the base.  I personally believe a substantial bush is going to be anchored in the dirt a lot better than something I am going to superficially screw in the ground - and there always seems to be a decent bush.

Very often there is a deck with support posts (4x4's) accessible below the deck if no railing above it.  I have been on some very deteriorated decks where I tied off to several places and did not rely on one tie-off point.

Don't forget about fencing, and that has been mentioned before. You can push webbing around the 4x4 there is always a place where the post deviates from the panels. Again, you can tie off to more than one post and run that webbing through the end of your rope.  Webbing is fairly cheap, you will want to get pieces cut in various lengths.

I have tied off to my vehicle on rare occasion (only keys in my pocket) and have brought large water containers but never needed to fill them up.

Start visualizing where you would tie-off to on every house you walk up to this coming week, it won't be an issue anymore.

larry- do you tie off so you don't fall of the bar stool?

I guess I am old and not up on new techniques, but how does one inspect a roof with 30 inches of powder snow on it. Please pass on your technique.

Well I own a pair of Cougar Paws and earn my living selling roofs and I can tell you for a fact that the best protections against falling are:

1. Rope & Harness

2. A Cushion from a sofa that you can buy for only $33 from roofing supply store.  This is far superior to $160 cougar paws!  You can be on a roof with granules running off it that makes it as slippery as being on ice.  You will still slide down this roof wearing your $160 couger paws!  BUT YOU WILL NOT SLIDE DOWN THIS ROOF SITTING ON YOUR $33 CUSHION!  That cushion grabs onto those shingles like you wish your expensive cougar paws would.

3. Cougar Paws.

If you are like me: 47 years old.  6'4" and weigh 260 pounds you do NOT want to fall.  So I use all 3.  Cause I am SCARED and do NOT want to fall.  Even with a rope and harness you are still safer if you include using the cushion.  Also learning how to use ascenders and descenders would defnitely be a good thing.  I am planning to take K Squared's class one day.  I do understand how some people can dislike Kevin sometimes cause he can be a prick if he is irritated.  But he did make a lot of effort and go through a lot of expense to create his training facility.  It is also a fact that a lot of other facilities did rip off his training methods and techniques which can cause some bitterness.

Anyway...  I did hear that E.A. Renfro based in AL has a rope and harness school and you can attend it and earn $250 per days as part of a rope and harness team that handles State Farm Steep Roof inspections.

Bob H:  "Confucious say falling on ass is better than falling off roof."  LMAO

That confucious fella is pretty damn smart!

Does Anyone Know How to Protect Your Rope On the Roof?  How do you keep your rope from getting roof/asphalt tar on it while you drag it over, around and across the roof?   Some guy at Home Depot suggested a protective coating similiar to a garden hose to protect the rope.  However, if a person were to incorporate a plastic rope coating would it prevent a rope grab or ascender/descender from working?

Also I did put a 6 foot piece of hose over my rope hoping the have it cover the roof ridge but it never works out because the plastic hose rarely stays in place.  One adjuster suggested the plumbing pipe insulation as covers but they break too easily. 

Anyway...  I am looking forward to some good advice on this matter.  

Bob,

What is up with attaching to the chimney?  I was told not to do that ever.  Maybe you can get away with it but I am 260lbs so I am gonna stick to a tree or my van.  Also I gotta tell you that the $33 sofa cushion that a Mexican roofer let me borrow is Hands Down Superior to Cougar Paws.  I was on an 11/12 pitched roof with cougar paws and was slipping down the slope back into the valley.  The Mexican guy was wearing tennis shoes that cost $12 at Walmart and using the $33 sofa cushion from the roofing supply store and never budged at all.  He had two of them and let me borrow one.  It is a lot better than cougar paws!  I am still using cougar paws and a rope but I am planning to go buy me one of thsoe $33 cushions very soon!

I had a guy from Guatemala teach me how to use the cushions. They work great!  You just sit on it and bounce around the roof.  It holds like you wish your coaugar paws would hold.  It just GRIPS the Shingles and it does NOT matter at all if the granules are running down that roof like water you will not slip. Try walking on the same roof with your cougar paws and you better have a rope attached to you!

I think I read in an insurance book that emotional trauma is recoverable as general damages?  Also the difference between Property and Liability insurance is that you cannot buy the home or boat,  that you want without insurance unless you pay in cash.  You cannot drive a car off the lot without liability insurance as the dealer will NOT allow you to becuase it is illegal and apparently they will be held responsible.  How do I know this for a fact?  Well because the dealer will not allow you to drive off the lot unless you have PROOF OF LIABILITY INSURANCE and that is IF you buy the car in cash.  Of course if you must finance the car then you must also have physical damage insurance.

Now the similiarity between a bank robber and a person who did not have liability insurance at the time of accident is because they both regretted what they did - After the Fact.  Which of course is too late.

I see no reason why the information given in any way causes any harm to anyone. If an IA takes a photo of himself and posts it on here how is that supposed to reflect negatively on State Farm?  I assume that you are refering to most likely a photo of Bob.  Any comments Bob?

Insprojohn,

When I took the R&H certification with State Farm, we used a very high tech method of protecting the rope and the ridge.  Just joking--actually we used plumbing pipe insulation (the kind that is pre-split and you can just pop it over the rope not feed it through) then used the world famous duct tape wrapped about a half a roll over the foam pipe insulation.  The insulation stayed soft but rigid enough to roll over the ridge and still light weight.   Checking the rope after each use you can just apply talc to any area of heavy asphalt but always wear gloves.

Ray,

I guess it would depend on which adjuster is wearing the State Farm shirt whether it would have a positive or negative impact. Bob Harvey wearing a State Farm shirt while climbing a roof....that seems like excellent advertisement to me.  Hoober Goober, 3 Day Wonder Texas Adjuster, wearing a State Farm shirt while guzzling swill in the local dive bar and trying to pick up the bartender.....that would be a problem.

I believe that's strike three, Racko.

On a more serious note, there is a lot of good information in this thread.  Thanks to all the real professionals (you know who you are) that have been willing to share what amounts to their trade secrets.  May your footing continue to hold and may you stay with us for a very long time.

Well, it all depends if the act is done in a professional manner. If say, the folks on skid row in return send a complimentery 'Sunshine' letter to the president of the shirts company, it might make it sort of allright. And if the files were securely tied to a couple of bricks so they could become the beginnings of an artificial reef for the benefit of the nautical wildlife, and not just more floating litter, I guess it might be kinda okay.

But, if a snarky, back stabbing claims manager's feet are set in concrete and deposited in the shark infested sparkling waters off beautiful Miami Beach, many may see that as a honorable, justifible, and joyous act.

Other people may have differing opinions.

Ol' Ghost

Steve, I was being facetious, you know that. I got the inspiration from an old Frank Sinatra movie from 1968, 'Lady In Cement', that was on TCM recently. By the way, I thought Miami Metro was the Bus Company.
 

I always keep a civilian shirt in the truck and change into it  in office parking lot when I leave in the evening. I wouldn't even imbibe a glass of pure, wholesome milk in public in a company shirt. I wear the company colors in the course and scope of my sacred duties, but never on my own time.

Ol' Ghost

Jim-

Given the nature of your posts, would you want to change your last comment from a "USAA Cat shirt" to an XYZ Cat shirt?

RJ

Posted By JAustin on 10 Dec 2009 09:42 AM
...NOT LIKE YOU TO PUT THEIR LOGO ON WEB SITES 

Hi Jim, as you know 99.9 % of my focus was to put some info on the thread to possibly help others from taking an unplanned ride down the slope to the dirt.  I really didn't consider what shirt I was wearing.

Rather than argue about that (you could have a point), I will edit out the logo when I get a chance and re-upload the photo.  It will likely be at least several weeks til I can pull up photoshop and edit the photo cuz I am fortunate to be working at a new site and have to get over the wall of the first inspections.

Just trying to help.

Gotcha, and that's what I thought.
You have pointed out something that we had not thought of.
I would like to point out something for you as well. I'm not sure how long you have been adjusting, maybe I am preaching to the choir if you have been doing this for a long time. More important than my ability to measure a roof is my ability to encounter people who are upset, maybe say things that "stir up the pot" - and just let it go.

The ability to get along with people (regardless of the circumstance) is very important in this biz. When you are working, likely you do the same thing I do and "be a nice guy" no matter what. I try to do the same thing in all areas of life (even on a forum) unless I am defending myself or family.

I fully expected smart A answers from the likes of claims_ray and RJortberg

Rich Jortberg has been active on this thread for months, has climbing experience. Maybe he doesn't place the degree of importance you do on the shirt issue.  From HIS perspective, you may be nuts for making a big deal about it.  At the end of the day, we all learn.

I don't consider Claims_Ray a smart *ss either, but if I did I wouldn't put it that way.  It's amazing how small this world is.  I just drove 9 hours to a new site Thursday, very small storm with 5 adjusters.  The claims mgr arrived, and knew 2 of the other adjusters.  The support people arrived, and I had just worked with one of them earlier this year. 

My point:  even if you need to bash someone, do it in a way that you could share a room with them next year on a future deployment.

Hey all I said was I failed to see any harm to the companies from photos of an IA on a roof and what someone states is a company's agenda.
Now I do agree that we should not state information that could be considered a "Trade Secret" however I did not see any harm in what was stated. If someone choses to cut their own throat then more power to them and more work for the rest of us.
I also pointed out that "Anonymous Jim" (I didn't know that this was Cat Adjusters Anonymous or CAA) could cause harm to himself and the company that he named in a hypothetical posting.

I have been an A** in some of my postings however not in this case. In the cases where I have been an A** I have usually done in an attempt to be humorous and/or informative.

 

More important than my ability to measure a roof is my ability to encounter people who are upset, maybe say things that "stir up the pot" - and just let it go.  The ability to get along with people (regardless of the circumstance) is very important in this biz.

This is a critical skill for a catadjuster because you WILL encounter angry and upset people, and you have to work with them in a positive manner, if at all possible.  Failure to do this will get you taken off a storm long before bad photos or roof measurements.

Can I say constructively that I think its most irritating when you copy peoples text on your replies.

I agree completely!  Just kidding, of course.  It clarifies exactly what and who is being responded to.

That's enough fellas, this is not helping the industry.

We currently have three Navy Seals who are being court marshalled for "roughing up" the worlds most wanted terrorist during his recent capture!

YES! A war analogy. I am so frickin happy right now I can't even tell you how happy I am. I have been waiting for that for months now. Thanks Kev!!!!!!!

 

IT IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE FOR INS CARRIERS AND CONTRACT IA COMPANIES TO PAT US ON THE BACK AND TELL US THAT WE ARE FREE TO CLIMB ANY ROOF THAT WE "ARE COMFORTABLE WITH" BUT DON'T EXPECT TO GET PAID ON THE CLAIMS YOU WONT CLIMB. YET NOT OFFER US ANY SORT OF PFAS TRAINING TO KEEP OUR KIND OUT OF THE HOSPITALS & MORGUE.

Ugh your shouting and screaming again........

I really think Mr. Kramer is a great guy.  Humor is an awesome part of life and he knows how to play it soooooo well.

Lets all join in a constant praise of one another and attempt to settle our differences like men. 

I hope no-one on this site misquotes me as I have nothing but respect for Bob and Kevin Kramer.  They are great individuals with promising careers in adjusting.

You guys are awesome!

--------------
Edit Jan 9, 2010: Jim thank you for revising the post above, no longer threatening another member.
--------------
Jim, that's tough talk coming from someone hiding behind an anonymous name
(per your post some pages back).

Posted By JAustin on 11 Dec 2009 12:20 PM
...I for one choose to keep my identity on this site a secret...

This thread is about Steep roofs. If you have something to add to the topic, please begin.  At least Kevin Kramer brings it back to the topic, and he knows more about it than anyone I have ever met.

Hi Danny, I was hoping you would pop-in cuz I wanted to apologize for butting heads with you earlier on Rope-grab vs, Gri-Gri (by Petzl).  I loved the rope-grab for moderately steep roofs, but felt it was pucker-city descending a very steep roof with only a Rope-grab.

Maybe you saw a few pages back, I added a friction device (simple figure-8) to the Rope-grab and that gave me the control I wanted coming back down off a 12-12.  I'm not saying it "has" to be added to maintain control, but it is one of the possibilities out there and I wasn't aware of it when we were airing this out previously.

And I agree with you on taking a class.  I had been gathering equipment and "messing around" with this topic for a while.  But it wasn't until I took formal training that I was able to connect the dots. I am still learning, and do not consider myself an expert on this topic.

Posted By highwinds on 17 Feb 2010 02:02 PM
I would like to hear how anyone would inspect a 12/12 hip, with no extension, and a 5' ridge. Ok you can have an anchor on the front and back, but you really need to inspect the right and left slopes.

I agree with you - it is a challenge.  But like anything else, you start somewhere and increase your skills.  For someone climbing a simple gable roof with a huge ridge running the full length of the roof, it can still feel scary simply because it is STEEP and one isn't that familiar with your new tools (rope & harness).  Once you get familiar with the simple ones, and have confidence, the hips and cut-up roofs are less intimidating. 

The purpose of roping off is so you DON'T fall, and once you have the basics there is a foundation to expand upon.  One always has to respect the limitations & be safe out there.

I don't consider myself an expert at this, lot's of people have this experience but may not post here.

Many experienced adjusters know how to settle roof claims without special training and equipment.

Posted By highwinds on 17 Feb 2010 02:02 PM
I would like to hear how anyone would inspect a 12/12 hip, with no extension, and a 5' ridge. Ok you can have an anchor on the front and back, but you really need to inspect the right and left slopes.

There is no absolute answer as each roof will be different, but if there is a chimney, you can wrap around it sometimes. Just use your head and be safe.

JWG

 I did Kevins steep and tall class. It was excellent.  I got a lot of good information that day and not just about climbing steep and tall.  I have also trained with US Staffing. I saw the climbing school and have to say that compared with Kevins facility its a distant second.