They don't just hand you the keys
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They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 3:36:52 PM
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rass3742
Posts: 131
Joined: 7/6/2005
Home base: Spokane, WA
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One thing I’ve noticed is the incessant struggle between newbies and veterans of our industry, as they scrimmage to identify the paradigm of CAT adjusting. As a veteran of claims adjusting myself, I have taken the long road here and know that I am better for it.
I have just recently become “active” in reading and posting comments; as such, I hope I am not breaking the rules of CADO by bringing the bulk of a post I already made into this thread. I just think it’s a topic at the front of so many minds here that it might be of interest as its own discussion.
What I’ve been seeing, in a lot of the posts in the CADO community, are seasoned adjusters who are struggling with the seemingly never-ending complaints of start-up adjusters who aren't being handed a living on a silver platter.
Understanding that all things are relative is the first step to getting a grasp on others' opinions. In the opinion of a person wanting to get into the industry, they are grasping at any training/experience they can, so they will be employable; but they can’t understand why claims managers aren’t calling them. At the same time, the seasoned adjusters (which eventually become those claims managers) are remembering everything they went through to get where they are: the years of adjusting claims; interacting with other insurance departments and outside customers like underwriting (personal lines and commercial lines), loss control, legal (appraisals, arbitrations, mediations, lawsuits), agents, experts (contractors, engineers, attorneys, accountants), public adjusters, insurance commissioners; and the hours and hours of researching policies and legal decisions, reviewing PILR (Property Insurance Loss Register) decisions and performing peer-review, to determine if their claim is covered. There are also numerous adjusting theories/tasks to consider like depreciation/betterment; co-insurance; underinsurance; estoppel; proximate cause; concurrent causation; ensuing damages; cause & origin; fraud; insurable interest; other insurance; existing damage; prior losses; definitions; deductibles; care, custody & control; statutory provisions; obsolescence; detrimental reliance; mitigation; subrogation/salvage; loss settlement and loss payment; inherent vice; consequential losses; ordinance or law; limits and sub-limits of liability; Replacement Cost v Actual Cash Value; exclusions; Waivers; Reservations of Rights letters; claimant motivation; bad faith; errors & omissions; fluid pricing; fair/unfair claims practices; fiduciary duties; moral hazard and morale hazard; litigation management (yes, it’s too late to start thinking of this after the suit has been filed); alternate dispute resolution; ambiguous policy wording; proper investigation; prompt reporting; reserving; consumer protection; loss site safety (for the adjuster, the insured and the public); as well as many others.
There are more components to a claim than just damages. There’s an old industry acronym: D.I.C.E. It stands for
Declarations
Insuring agreement
Conditions
Exclusions
Those are the four main components of an insurance policy. Did you see Damages in there? No. Now don't get me wrong - damages are obviously an important part to resolving a claim, but not until the items listed above have been considered. And failing to do so will trip up an adjuster quicker than his own untied shoelaces.
The claims managers inherently look at claims with far more insight than just banging out a bid for some roof shingles and wet drywall. But when they review their list of available candidates, they realize the huge influx of inexperienced adjusters. Since they are charged with a fiduciary responsibility to the carrier, they have to carefully consider those they bring into their employ.
There is a lot more to hiring adjusters than just finding people that want to become an adjuster, depending on the circumstances. If two or three large storms hit within a few weeks, everyone works; problem is, we haven’t seen that this year. But until that happens, not so. I think what has happened is that due to the explosive nature of the last two CAT seasons, a lot of people outside of, but near, the industry (contractors, building consultants, etc.) have caught the bug. So now supply and demand shows up, from another angle. All of a sudden, there are “boot camps” and “adjuster crash courses” falling from the sky. Now all of the guys and gals who think adjusting is an easy buck line up to give their hard earned money to these people, with the hopes for a big payoff. That’s when the next example of supply and demand kicks in; now there’s hundreds, if not thousands, of new adjusters who have passed their crash course and their on-line state licensing test and all want to go to work tomorrow. In a year like ’05, you bet, most of them are being given claim files; but in a lean year they’re not at the top of anyone’s list.
Now, for the newbies in the crowd….if we’re talking about CAT work, my last few paragraphs address it. If, on the other hand, you’re talking strictly about an entry-level position in the industry, with a mainstream carrier, I would encourage you to go full-steam ahead. Put out resumes that show you’re looking for an entry level/trainee position. There are many carriers that prefer trainees so they don’t have to “deprogram” them. Then be willing to spend the first month or two reading policies and doing correspondence courses before being given your first claim. As the claims start coming, they will get more difficult and challenging and before you know it you’ll have two years under your belt and will have dealt with issues and theories you never thought of; you’ll also be far more prepared to jump into the CAT arena and really make a difference, for yourself and your insured.
If you decide you want to be a Firefighter today, you won’t be driving the big red truck tomorrow; they don’t just hand you the keys.
_____________________________
Things are never so bad they couldn't be worse.
Count your blessings.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 4:25:35 PM
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Tom_Toll
Posts: 560
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Austin, AR
Status: offline
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Excellent post and well thought out. Please continue to post like this. Your welcome to our little world of adjusters.
_____________________________
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 4:46:14 PM
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margar
Posts: 241
Joined: 3/18/2006
Home base: Benton, KY
Status: offline
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Nice post and very informative!
< Message edited by margar -- 9/12/2006 5:23:46 PM >
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 4:47:22 PM
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Mattcatadj123
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/24/2006
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Very well said Rass these are the things that the people wanting to get in this business need to know... There is more to cat adjusting than measuring a roof.... Thanks for that post.....
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 5:33:07 PM
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brighton
Posts: 39
Joined: 6/10/2005
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Daryl summed up new cat adjusters very well in his post of today in "On the Downside". This is slightly parapharsed.
"My personal opinion (not our company's) is that having to choose from an experienced adjuster and a new adjuster that we don't know I would prefer the experienced; between an experienced adjuster I didn't know and a new adjuster I did know with solid estimates, good customer service skills and doesn't knock supervision, I want the new guy. If I know both of them and they both do good work I would take the experienced adjuster if available. If the new guy is one who has worked just for us and the experienced worker works for several companies, I want the new guy that has shown loyalty to us.
Our company's position is that if we get a call for a number of adjusters we try to work in a few new adjusters with the experienced in an attempt to develop a future workforce. (out of 10 maybe 8-2 ratio).
We have noticed a trend that the carriers are now more concerned with customer service skills that estimate writing competency. More than once I have been told that we can help train him in estimatics but its hard to teach customer service skills.
Just my opinion. "
Please take note that Daryl is speaking about Cat work. Rass' summation of what goes into the total claim adjuster is dead on. I was staff for close to 30 years. I am forever greatfull that Aetna had the 4 month training program. While I made my fair share of mistakes (and for probably the next 4 trainees comming on), I can only imagine what would have happened with out their training and then sending me to Vale for both property and auto. My wife feels the same way. She was staff for 28 years (the rookie in the family)
As far as getting the keys to the fire truck, when you do you kind of feel like a giant (you are normally taller than the other vehicles out there). However, when the chief tells you that a wrecking the appratus on the way to the fire does no one any good, it hits home. Adjusting as well, if I go in to a scene full bore, don't take the time to ask the insured what their concerns are, listen and repeat what they said, and then explained what I will be doing and proceedures, I have wrecked at the scene. Take your time the first time. It is normally a long drive back for that second inspection.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 5:38:42 PM
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garyw
Posts: 11
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rass3742
If you decide you want to be a Firefighter today, you won’t be driving the big red truck tomorrow; they don’t just hand you the keys.
That is in fact true, but when one decides "I want to be a Fireman", they pursuit the position, i.e. attend Fire Academy, learn procedures and safety rules. Same applies to Adjusting 1. ambition 2. want to learn 3. attend courses, learn policy verbage, exclusions, covered perils, declarant(s) etc., . And after this , in respect for all " new Adjusters" have we learned, not all, but the needed knowledge to be accepted into the industry.At what point can we be handed "the files". I am sure that most SHOULD know as with any thing else ,courses and classes will only give you the foundation to a career, but the finished product will come hands on or " In the the field". I can't speak for all, but only myself being new, I am simply inquiring on certain things I have not been able to find elsewhere, so if this is violating the veterans code, please forgive me.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 5:43:42 PM
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tiwiii
Posts: 116
Joined: 6/3/2004
Status: offline
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Straight up, a post worth reading.
Good to see someone new around here with good insight.
I could not agree with you more. I can't understand why I am constantly approached by people who want to do what I do, and think they can just move over from whatever their experience is to what I have trained for over the last 14 years. Yes, I consider myself in training because it never stops.
The small stuff does matter....
Those small insignificant details (as I thought at the time), you know, the dumb reason a file would get kicked back because the manager is just nit picky; well, I understand now why.
Take your time, know the coverage, and help the Insd. You are an advocate for both the Company and the Policyholder.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 7:13:08 PM
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trader
Posts: 1203
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Houston, TX
Status: offline
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Training to be an auto/casualty adjuster took a full two months before I was given a company car and a territory. Several years later in property 2 full months in the Regional office and 3 weeks in Vale. Received my first big promotion after about 5 years. The same story from each adjuster trained by an insurance company at their expense. No real short cuts and cat adjusters only will never be able to go to the front of the line. Just the way it has been in my 51 years.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 8:37:38 PM
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abcdefg
Posts: 1
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline
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It is amazing how many new adjusters can work in this field with such minimal training. I recently attended a vendor training to get certified to handle claims for a carrier. Although I'd say about half or more of the people there were newbies and the carrier requires an adjuster to have at least 3 years experience, somehow I don't think anyone who passes the simple test will have a problem being certified.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 8:52:27 PM
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rass3742
Posts: 131
Joined: 7/6/2005
Home base: Spokane, WA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abcdefg
It is amazing how many new adjusters can work in this field with such minimal training. I recently attended a vendor training to get certified to handle claims for a carrier. Although I'd say about half or more of the people there were newbies and the carrier requires an adjuster to have at least 3 years experience, somehow I don't think anyone who passes the simple test will have a problem being certified.
Could you imagine this many new people, without any training, just showing up at NASA or Wall Street? They would be dismissed and sent packing so fast they wouldn't know what day it was.
_____________________________
Things are never so bad they couldn't be worse.
Count your blessings.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 9:18:15 PM
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JGardner
Posts: 325
Joined: 2/28/2005
Home base: Daphne, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abcdefg
It is amazing how many new adjusters can work in this field with such minimal training. I recently attended a vendor training to get certified to handle claims for a carrier. Although I'd say about half or more of the people there were newbies and the carrier requires an adjuster to have at least 3 years experience, somehow I don't think anyone who passes the simple test will have a problem being certified.
Who says they are working and will continue to work? The benefits of these orientations to the experienced adjusters is to advise of important company-specific guidelines. Outside of that debriefing, vendor training typically serves as a PR stunt and an attempt to deter to the get-rich quick crowds.
While the vendor training covers company and general claim information, the state licensing tests cover the industry as a whole.
These two (2) training sources are insignificant and do very little in the way of getting an inexperienced adjuster close to being comfortable with true claims handling.
_____________________________
Jud
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 9:34:56 PM
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TexCatAdj
Posts: 4
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rass3742
quote:
ORIGINAL: abcdefg
It is amazing how many new adjusters can work in this field with such minimal training. I recently attended a vendor training to get certified to handle claims for a carrier. Although I'd say about half or more of the people there were newbies and the carrier requires an adjuster to have at least 3 years experience, somehow I don't think anyone who passes the simple test will have a problem being certified.
Could you imagine this many new people, without any training, just showing up at NASA or Wall Street? They would be dismissed and sent packing so fast they wouldn't know what day it was.
Better be careful! Saying anything negative about 'newbies', or even the expectation that they should be expected to act as professionals will get you run off of this site. I have spent a lot of time looking back through the archives and a recurring theme seems to be that seeking a higher standard for the profession seems to be looked at as exclusionary or down right mean.
Is that what this business is all about? Let everyone and their dog in?
Maybe I don't want to be associated with it after all.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 9:45:51 PM
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racko
Posts: 241
Joined: 2/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rass3742
I have just recently become “active” in reading and posting comments; as such, I hope I am not breaking the rules of CADO by bringing the bulk of a post I already made into this thread. I just think it’s a topic at the front of so many minds here that it might be of interest as its own discussion.
Thanx from all of us for coming out of your shell, if that is what it was ...it seems to me that you have a whole bunch to offer to this site! But don't get too comfortable, Rass...we might start spell-checkin' ya!! Hang around, and often!
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 10:27:59 PM
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trader
Posts: 1203
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Houston, TX
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I think the mold detectives should be hired by the training schools and hunt you all down.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 10:46:35 PM
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LarryW
Posts: 207
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Home base: Grand Bay, AL
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Eric,
Nice opening post.
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Larry Wright
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 10:47:19 PM
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RedSupraT
Posts: 274
Joined: 10/31/2004
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I remember when SF made you be an outside property adjuster for 2 years minimum before you could even apply to be a CAT adjuster (staff). That amounts to about a year of training and a year of learning by making mistakes with a reinspection and manager close bye. So many times I see the "old timers" trying to explain how this industry/business works because it is a business for the IA and the Carrier. Just one question to all the people who want to become an IA cat adjuster, Do you really think that someone with no industry hands on experience is going to make rediculous amounts of money?
The people who make a living in this industry do so beceause they have years of experience. This thread is dead on.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 10:59:14 PM
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racko
Posts: 241
Joined: 2/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trader
I think the mold detectives should be hired by the training schools and hunt you all down.
You have done it to me again!! I'll be up all night. 
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 11:02:07 PM
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F Taylor
Posts: 19
Joined: 6/20/2006
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rass3742 that was a very articulate and insightful post.
Hope to see more.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/12/2006 11:35:16 PM
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rass3742
Posts: 131
Joined: 7/6/2005
Home base: Spokane, WA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: racko
quote:
ORIGINAL: rass3742
I have just recently become “active” in reading and posting comments; as such, I hope I am not breaking the rules of CADO by bringing the bulk of a post I already made into this thread. I just think it’s a topic at the front of so many minds here that it might be of interest as its own discussion.
Thanx from all of us for coming out of your shell, if that is what it was ...it seems to me that you have a whole bunch to offer to this site! But don't get too comfortable, Rass...we might start spell-checkin' ya!! Hang around, and often!
I can't find a shell big enough to house me. The real reason is I had substantially completed my '05 files, saw nothing on the horizon of substance and decided I better quite spending money; it forced me to trade EBAY for CADO.
And please, feel free to spell check ; I have as many faults as the next guy.
_____________________________
Things are never so bad they couldn't be worse.
Count your blessings.
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RE: They don't just hand you the keys - 9/13/2006 2:36:19 AM
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rass3742
Posts: 131
Joined: 7/6/2005
Home base: Spokane, WA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: garyw
quote:
ORIGINAL: rass3742
If you decide you want to be a Firefighter today, you won’t be driving the big red truck tomorrow; they don’t just hand you the keys.
That is in fact true, but when one decides "I want to be a Fireman", they pursuit the position, i.e. attend Fire Academy, learn procedures and safety rules. Same applies to Adjusting 1. ambition 2. want to learn 3. attend courses, learn policy verbage, exclusions, covered perils, declarant(s) etc., . And after this , in respect for all " new Adjusters" have we learned, not all, but the needed knowledge to be accepted into the industry.At what point can we be handed "the files". I am sure that most SHOULD know as with any thing else ,courses and classes will only give you the foundation to a career, but the finished product will come hands on or " In the the field". I can't speak for all, but only myself being new, I am simply inquiring on certain things I have not been able to find elsewhere, so if this is violating the veterans code, please forgive me.
Gary,
No one is saying the industry doesn't want or need new people. Every occupation needs new life or it will die out. The genesis of my initial post was not due to an opinion that we have no use for new people, or that newbies should dry up and blow away. The catalyst for my thoughts was an observation that the majority (not all) of the newbies have an entitlement mentality toward an industry they know little about. Look at some of the posts on CADO; one is entitled “how much can you really make?” Now does that sound like someone applying for the fire academy, or someone wanting to run Code-3 with full lights and sirens?
My post was intended to stir up insightful thought in both new people and veterans. I want those new to the idea of being an adjuster to actually be interested in the profession, not just a paycheck. You asked: “At what point can we be handed ‘the files.’” (within the realm of CAT adjusting). I think one area of confusion among the new guys spawns when they fail to differentiate “normal claims” from “CAT claims.” These are not two separate professions, just different career paths. Reckoning back to our fire house example: a new fire recruit and a Fire Chief are both “fire fighters;” but the Chief has vast more experience and knowledge than does the recruit. Can the Chief do the recruits job? Yes. Can the recruit do the Chief’s job? No. That doesn’t mean the recruit has no value, it just means he is where he should be for the amount of experience he has. A lot of the veterans are simply trying to advise the new recruits that they would be better served to start in a role commensurate with their skill sets; that would be as a trainee with an insurance company. Once they have a chance to learn and grow in the industry, they will be promoted and advanced through the ranks. With growth and attrition, desirable job slots will avail themselves to you to apply for. As your tenure increases, so will your opportunity to take continuing education classes and gain real life knowledge with every claim settled; you can’t imagine the lessons that will be bestowed upon you.
Let me give you a real-world example. When I started my career many years ago, I didn’t receive my first claim for about 2 months; the first 60 days were spent reading policies and completing correspondence courses. After my initial training, I received my first claim: a stolen set of golf clubs. Then, after I had handled around 30 claims, I was sent to an office about 50 miles away to be the “ears” for a 30-year veteran adjuster who was losing his hearing. I spent a month or so there answering his phone calls and taking his recorded statements. Not very glorious work, but it was part of my training. As time went on the claims assigned to me became more difficult and challenging. Did I make mistakes along the way? You bet. But with a supervisor acting as your backstop, in a controlled “normal” claims environment, those contingencies have been accounted for. After I made it through my “trainee” phase, my supervisor told me that the carrier we were working for budgeted in an extra $50,000 per year, per trainee, to account for overpayment of claims, as they actually gave us a little autonomy to make decisions, with full knowledge that due to our inexperience we would overpay claims. At the same time, there were obviously stopgaps in place to control the amounts we could pay (called authority levels); any payment over our authority had to be approved by the supervisor. They still wanted us to give our recommendation for payment (after considering coverage, conditions, exclusions, etc.), but could stop us before we created a train wreck. In a CAT situation, the supervisors don’t have time to watch everything you’re doing, other than to kick the file back if it does not meet expectations. While that gives some control, it really does not address the biggest risk. The largest liability comes from the inexperienced adjuster standing on the insured’s doorstep. Not wanting to disappoint anyone, they often get themselves tied up in a sticky situation by promising something that isn’t covered, thereby potentially creating an estoppel situation for the carrier. In the extremely litigious society in which we live, don’t think for a second the insured won’t sue you, the IA firm and the carrier if they don’t think they’re being treated fairly. That’s not to say a seasoned adjuster can’t also find themselves in hot water; but I would suggest to you that they will be less likely to end up there, because of the years of experience they have to draw from in that critical moment. Experience cannot be copied.
As for your allegation of a “veteran’s code,” I can only suggest to you that patronization of those you’re trying to get close to will not aid you in your endeavor. Not taking it personally, however, and in the spirit of advice being worth what you paid for it, allow me to dispense some unsolicited thoughts: if you truly want to be an adjuster because you desire this vocation, then I welcome you to the world of claims adjusting and wish you the very best. If, on the other hand, you think it will be a quick easy buck and on to something else, don’t bother; the cost to you, your IA firm, the insured, the carrier and the adjuster who gets to clean up after you will not be worth it.
I imagine there are a number of resources to find a good solid claims trainee job in your area; if you’re serious, go for it. I sincerely wish you the best in whatever you decide Gary. You come across as someone with fire in your belly; that’s a great attribute for working in this crazy industry. I just hope you’ll heed the advice of many who have done this before you and already understand the pitfalls. You have to walk before you can run.
_____________________________
Things are never so bad they couldn't be worse.
Count your blessings.
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