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Working as a PA - 2/22/2006 4:31:08 PM
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Rookie
Posts: 46
Joined: 11/2/2005
Home base: Kentucky
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This was my first years as an adjuster. I completed my claims last month and am looking for work. I am considering working as a PA in Florida. I met the owner of the company while working a claim. He was the PA for one of my insureds. He was by far the best PA I worked with - even provided me with a scope when we met.
What are the pros and conns of working as a PA? I think I recall hearing that if you work as a PA you aren't able to switch your license back and work as an IA in the same calendar year. Is that correct?
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RE: Working as a PA - 2/22/2006 5:08:52 PM
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olderthendirt
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: homeless
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Suggest you search the archieves first, then you will be able to make an informed choice.
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Still sliding down the razor blade of life
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RE: Working as a PA - 2/22/2006 8:27:12 PM
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kilo
Posts: 82
Joined: 12/12/2005
Home base: Independence, LA
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Eom
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/26/2006 6:27:32 PM
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REWARDADJUSTING
Posts: 91
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline
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PA -VS- IA?
I have been a staff adjuster for 6 years and then an IA for an additional 6 years, have been working CATS since Floyd back in 1996. I feel there is a need for PA's due to the enormous amount of Newbees flooding into the cat IA adjusting field. Soon due to supply -VS - demand most likely the fee schedules will drop and the adjusting firms will reduce their % to adjusters. If there are 100 hungry newbees fighting over the same pile of work the pay will drop, this industry is changing, fast... When this happens there will be more need for PA's then ever. This will cause a shift in the industry, the highly skilled adjusters will move over to the PA side to get more volume of work and make way more money. PA's charge 10% of the claim settlement, on average a PA will make 20 times more than an IA on the same claim. For example on a $200,000 claim the PA gets $20,000 and the IA will most likely only walk with $1,000 + - and work a lot harder to settle the claim. The PA only needs to do a total of 10 claims to make the same money an IA will make handling 100+ claims.
Something to think about...
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/26/2006 9:40:32 PM
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okclarryd
Posts: 616
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Oklahoma City, Ok
Status: offline
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Ralf,
I think there may be more to it than just the money.
If that's your defining criteria, I'll gladly stay where I am.
I went back and re-read your posting and I apologize. I misread it and understood that you were a PA.
< Message edited by okclarryd -- 3/26/2006 9:46:18 PM >
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LARRY D HARDIN
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 8:31:20 AM
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newtonclaimstim
Posts: 155
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
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He might have a point, but the dark side I have known only one adjuster who went there and he came back. To the light, as a staff adjuster. That was before things changed with the 3 day schools and getting certified for NFIP in one day rather than having to get a FCN number. Good Luck !
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 10:34:27 AM
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JGardner
Posts: 325
Joined: 2/28/2005
Home base: Daphne, AL
Status: offline
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There and back. Some carriers or their vendors won't let you come back once you've tasted the forbidden fruit. I'm sitting in a USAA course right now and they just reiterated that their contract disallows anyone that has been a PA to work claims for USAA.
Regardless of how you rationalize becoming a PA, you are effectively creating an adverse relationship with the ins. co. The carriers, like elephants, have a long memory.
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Jud
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 11:06:56 AM
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Medulus
Posts: 367
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Lake Ariel, PA
Status: offline
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Rookie,
I've been too busy with other work to get over to Florida. I spent 2004 in New York and Boston working a freeze event that ended up keeping me in the area from January 14 to December 20. Then Ms. Katrina grabbed my attentions and held them this year.
Therefore, I have not made it over to the Florida storms, except a brief stint on Hurricane Dennis. My dismay, however, is that someone with less than one year's experience would be solicited as a public adjuster. I have encountered public adjusters almost everywhere I worked. Some were hard working. Some were lazy. Some were irascible and contrary. Some were friendly and helpful. But one thing they have had in common is that they had several years of experience. More than a few of them had been GAB staff adjusters for several years before going over to the dark side. Just what can you offer an insured which would be worth 10% of their claim after working as a catadjuster for three or four months? Because I haven't worked Florida in the last couple years, am I missing something?
That you were impressed by a public adjuster actually giving you a copy of an estimate on your first meeting may speak to part of the problem. A public adjuster preparing an estimate ahead of time is standard operating procedure in most of the country. It is hardly an exception. It is the norm. When I meet with a PA who wants me to write up the estimate and send it to him/her for rubber stamping, I know that the insured just wasted 10% of their money. The purpose of a public adjuster is to help the insured, not just take some of their money.
I did meet with one PA about a month ago on a loss who I found singularly unimpressive. This was on a re-open of a Hurricane Dennis claim. I have not been carrying a two story ladder on this assignment because I have only encountered a couple roofs I couldn't access with a smaller ladder. Upon meeting me at the loss location without the two story ladder I had requested he bring, he told me he had not seen the loss before. Then he looked at the two story roof from the ground and said he could tell it was damaged enough to warrant replacement. Finally, he told me that if I want to go on the roof I should hire a contractor and go up there myself. He didn't need to be with me for that. So I contacted a contractor, met him with his ladder, and went up to discover that the roof had no storm related damage except four missing shingles. The public adjuster at no time actually inspected the loss from any point closer than the ground, and I had to supply the binoculars for that inspection.
Consider what the public adjuster cost everyone by not doing his job and actually inspecting the loss first: 1. He wasted everyone's time from the staff adjuster who was asked to consider the supplement to my supervisor who had to assign the claim and review the report to me (I had real claims to handle). 2. I put about 320 miles on my van and about eight hours on my windshield driving back and forth twice to this claim. 3. The contractor who met me at the loss took a couple hours out of his schedule to meet with me. He did this without payment for his services. If he had charged for his services, this too would have been charged to the insurance carrier. As it was, the insurance company then was billed for the mileage, time and expense. So the costs will ultimately be passed on back to the policyholders of Florida. Therefore, the ultimate cost of this public adjuster will go right back to the people he purports to be helping. It seems to me that makes him part of the problem, not part of the solution.
You may be a competent adjuster, Rookie. You may even be a great adjuster after a few years under your belt. And ultimately, Rookie, who am I to say whether you ought to go over to the public adjusting side or not? But whatever you do, my request is that you look beyond the money and try to be part of the solution. If you can actually help people who have suffered a loss recover from that loss, then I'll be glad to meet up with you on some loss where you are representing the insured. If you are there to take part of their money for which you do little or nothing, then there are enough people out there doing that already.
< Message edited by Medulus -- 3/27/2006 11:41:36 AM >
_____________________________
Steve Ebner
"With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 11:44:41 AM
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katadj
Posts: 692
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: New Hope, PA
Status: offline
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With respect to the question of "flipping" your FL license. This can be done "once a year" on the anniversary date.
You can be a PA one year and an IA in another year, BUT not both in the same year.
You may take great heed in Steve's response, as most of the Pa's I have been involved with have a great deal of expertize and many years of experience and are generally "good people" trying to make a living.
The other side of the coin , is the PA that has a few months training , just like the "warm bodies" that are thrown out to do claims.
IMHO, both will fail miserably.
Food for thought: "What if" about 44-50 old timer Ga's and EGA's were to change to the bright side?
I'm not convinced that the moniker placed on the PA's as the "dark side" is correct. If they are making 10 times the money for 10% of the work, who is the brighter?
IMHO, the industry would be taken directly to the "straight and narrow" path, where it belongs, and claims would be paid correctly, and there would be less and less warm bodies.
Just a lingering thought........................................................
_____________________________
"Excellence often first appears as error. It is only in retrospect that wisdom emerges from ignorance and success from failure." Abraham Lincoln
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 11:55:22 AM
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dcmarlin
Posts: 145
Joined: 2/10/2006
Home base: Morrison, CO
Status: offline
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I have to agree that most of time, PA's are a total waste of the insured's money. But, on large claims, if you have a knowledgeable and honest PA, they can be excellent to deal with and extremely helpful. Just as there are newbee adjusters there are a lot of newbee PA's that get into this business just for the bucks and do not have proper or adequate training. Several years ago, I had a claim with a PA with two policies involved and had to explain to him the apportionment of concurrent and non-concurrent policies and The Guiding Principles. He had no idea what I was talking about.
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 3:17:03 PM
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joeddiew
Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Home base: Selkirk, NY
Status: offline
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I don't either; what were you talking about? Pray tell.
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 3:22:43 PM
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ALANJ
Posts: 108
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: BIRMINGHAM, AL
Status: offline
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Our research has shown "The Guiding Principals" are no longer valid. Seems the organization that sponsored them are no longer around. If you have any information to the contrary then please post it.
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 5:38:12 PM
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kds008
Posts: 62
Joined: 9/29/2005
Home base: Burlington, IA/Punta Gorda, FL
Status: offline
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From the AICPCU Property Loss Adjusting textbook (Popow)
Third Edition - Second Printing - March 2004
"Another approach to resolve overlapping coverage problems is to apply the Guiding Principles. Excerpts of the first-party property Guiding Principles appear in the Appendix to this chapter (Chapter 2). Please note in the Foreword that these principles apply to all coverages except overlapping boiler and machinery coverage. The Guiding Principles were established by industry-wide associations in the 1960's to resolve conflicts among multiple insurers covering the same loss. Companies had to be signatories to the agreement in order for the Guiding Principles to be binding on them. Although many companies are no longer signatories to the Guiding Principles, many adjusters still use them as a way to resolve overlapping coverage problems."
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RE: Working as a PA - 3/27/2006 7:01:12 PM
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dcmarlin
Posts: 145
Joined: 2/10/2006
Home base: Morrison, CO
Status: offline
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Kim, Thanks for explaining. I have not used them in several years but used to all the time handling claims involving the Federal Crime Insurance Program thru FEMA. I believe that program is now defunct. Usually, they had this policy and another that did not cover theft. There were always overlapping coverages.
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RE: Working as a PA - 5/9/2006 8:17:45 AM
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acasey
Posts: 8
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline
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Rookie,
Here in the state of Florida they allow you to switch over when you like. I called them a few months ago to confirm this as I was considering the same move. All you have to do is pay the 55.00 license fee and obtain a 50K bond and then hand over your old license for your new one. If you don't mind what is the name of the co. you were considering working for as I have been approached as well.
Alex
< Message edited by acasey -- 5/9/2006 10:48:57 AM >
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RE: Working as a PA - 5/9/2006 2:16:38 PM
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tbmurphy
Posts: 3
Joined: 5/7/2006
Home base: Kilgore, TX
Status: offline
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This past season I had the oppurtunity to work with several PA's on claims. Personlly I feel the same as some of the above adjusters do, simply a waste of the insureds money! I had one insured who had a Hurricane Katrina cliam and got paid 3 days before Hurricane Wilma hit! Go figure that one! They said they didnt get enough $$$$ from there previous claim to even put a roof back on the risk. And of course when they filed a cliam on Wilma they had to pay the PA another 10% on top of what they had payed him on Katrina! No wonder the insured cant fix there property! Personlly I think it should be against the law, but as long as people have a vision of insurance companys always ripping them off then there will be PA.
I had another instance as well were the PA stated he represented the client and would forward the letter along with his estimate to me. I waited 30 days and never heard from him. Sent him an email and gave him 48 hours to reply with all documnetation it never showed up! So I turned in the claim and behold 2 weeks later it arrived. I replied and told him TOO LATE!!!! I sent the estimate to the insurance company 2 weeks ago. If PA's are going to represent people then they should do it in a very professional maner!
Then I can say I did deal with 2 other PA who did a bang up job and Had no problem on agreeing what should be paid and what should not! So overall if you are wanting to be a PA do a good job and work with the Insurance companys adjuster in a very helpful way and dont forget you are getting paid money that is going to fix the insureds home and the money you take from them could mean the difference between the insured getting repairs made or not!
Thanks
p.s. Just my 2 cents worth!
_____________________________
Thomas Murphy
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RE: Working as a PA - 5/9/2006 6:53:41 PM
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REWARDADJUSTING
Posts: 91
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline
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I see some bitterness posted on here, IA's stating PA's should be banned. Just remember when the storms clear out and it is dead slow back at home the only work that comes in is the claims the PA's drum up. Up here in the northeast it is so dead e-service companies and laying techs off and IA's are getting part time jobs to cover their mortgages, the only work that is coming in for the IA's is the work the PA's are creating. Get my point, PA's are keeping IA's in business through the slow times. And with all the newbee's in the cat adjusting field that are intimidated by large numbers, they tend to keep their estimates low to ease their mind (they are scared to write big estimates). This causes the newbees to underscope by a large amount. The PA's help the insureds in this situation.
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RE: Working as a PA - 5/9/2006 7:56:08 PM
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tiwiii
Posts: 116
Joined: 6/3/2004
Status: offline
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Nevermind.
< Message edited by tiwiii -- 5/9/2006 8:18:18 PM >
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RE: Working as a PA - 5/9/2006 8:04:40 PM
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Tom_Toll
Posts: 560
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Austin, AR
Status: offline
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We have the good, bad, and ugly in both professions. There is a need for experienced IA's and PA's. It is a joy to work with a PA who is professional and knows what he is doing. Of course, the reverse for the PA greed monger. There again, we have some of those in the IA scheme of things. The quick out trainee is a problem. Nothing better than experience and proper training, which they are not getting at those 2 to 5 day adjuster courses. I am in hopes that the insurance community will wake up some day and realize that the wonder workers with very little training are costing them money.
I have, however, met some very good young adjusters who don't close the book after they leave the class and are unafraid to ask questions. They will succeed, no doubt. The ones in it for just the money need to find work elsewhere.
_____________________________
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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RE: Working as a PA - 5/9/2006 11:17:30 PM
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trader
Posts: 1203
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Houston, TX
Status: offline
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Years ago I had a large factory fire with extensive damage to machinery to make steel shafts and rams for complex parts of compressors. The building coverage was one or more policies, the stock was one policy, the machinery was the policy for my carrier. The policy had an 80% co-insurance clause and we felt the coverage amount represented about 40% of the ACV for the machinery loss. The insured disagreed and hired a PA out of Cleveland, Ohio who took the case and after about 16 weeks presented a documented file with LKQ equipment from around the world, ready to ship FOB in Houston as replacement in compliance with the 80% co-insurance clause and saved his client $570 K.
He earned my respect as well as my boss.
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