RE: How much can you really make??
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 12/19/2005 11:45:54 PM
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BthereN20
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All I can say is "wow" by reading all of these posts on this subject. I am both inspired and humbled. I suppose I am still considered a newbie, being in the adjusting business for 2 years, by the long tenures some of you are boasting about. :)
At one point, I thought I was the only one wanting to pluck every hair out of my head with a tweezer for the amount of stress you have to put up with at times. I was always the one that said, "I can handle it", "It can't ever get to me." Little did I realize that when the stress builds up, when you push yourself, and 2 consecutive years later, the road does start to change you a little.
I have yet to determine if this is my profession of choice. To answer the implied question at hand, "Is the money worth it?", it depends on what you value in life. It's not easy being away from your family and friends and home for long periods of time (home? what the hell is that). Hotel rooms don't have that mysterious, sexy appeal like they used to in college. (well, sometimes)
I guess my point is, yes, you can make that mortgage payment and pay off your car and not have the financial worries that a lot of people have. But you show me someone who can successfully be a CAT adjuster for 10-15+ years and I'll show you someone whom I admire. With success comes sacrifice, and lots of it at times. What I wouldn't give to ride around in the car with JimF for a week or two to gain an experienced perspective.
P.S. Taking a break from the field and being an examiner, bad. Anything but being an examnier, good.
Chris
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 12/20/2005 7:35:58 AM
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ChuckDeaton
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With out any implication, just the facts, there are some of us who worked our first storms in the seventies. Basically Tom Toll, JimF, Dave Hood, Trader and numerous others have been there and done that. Some post here, some read these posts and others are retired.
Did they make a lot of money, I don't know. I do know this, there were good years and bad years and a lot of time spent in hotel rooms, alone working like there was no tommorrow, the emotional ups and downs are a rollacoaster. Some spent years in this business before they were established enough to come home with money.
Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans, is an example, how can an adjuster live in Hammond, LA and drive back and forth, pay the rent and expenses and make enough money to call it "big money." Truth is that some made money, some got by and a large number of adjusters lit out for Rita or Wilma when they realized the red numbers were creeping up on them.
How many posts are there on this board relating to a vendors failure to pay. Got kids, a wife, a home, expenses, worked the claims and now the vendor won't pay. What happens to the mortgage and that new diesel now.
Best think it thru before you get in this business.
_____________________________
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 12/20/2005 8:25:28 AM
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jlombardo
Posts: 335
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BthereN20,
In regards to your PS about file review.......
Here is the other side of it....
I am still reviewing Wilma files as well as being the CAT Director for the carrier that I work for.....I have been working with one small IA firm and am reviewing files at that level, so that when the files hit the carrier, they are in pretty good shape...obviously the vendor have there own review people and I am just an added bonus......I have worked on the ground with the vendor and the IA's to resolve coverage questions, authorize engineers, etc....so I guess I am more of a liaison between the IA , the vendor and the carrier
I have got to tell you...some days it was the most frustrating thing that I have ever done......some days it wasn't too bad and some days the files flowed beautifully......this is my first steady review gig and it was difficult....checking the file for basic content and form...coverage....comparing photos with the damage written or not written, etc...it was really tough, but extremely rewarding.........
The working with the adjusters to improve their product and the exchange of dialog on coverage determination was most rewarding and enjoyable........they were and are a terrific group of folks.......yes there were some serious problems, but they were resolved by the vendor and I and the adjuster.......it was and is a draining and demanding experience but a most rewarding one......you really learn from the folks that you are working with and they learn from you.......
I would like to publicly tip my hat to all those adjusters that I have worked with on this storm.....I would not have missed working with these folks for all the money in the world.........and I would like to publicly say thank you to the vendors that I worked with on this storm and especially to Dave Swank and Scott Lenz for all their hard work.........
I can not comment on the other two vendors involved with handling our claims as they reported to my home office and their files were reviewed by other staff adjusters, but I can only assume that they also tried their best to accommodate and meet our needs.
If you ever get a chance to review files and work with the adjusters whose files you are reviewing, I suggest that you jump at the opportunity.......
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 12/20/2005 9:02:34 AM
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MDC
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To: jlombardo
I would agree with your analysis and the compliment you have given to David and Scott.
Unfortunetely these types of compliments are too few and far in this forum.
I would like to add Bill Nevill to this list of good people.
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 12/20/2005 12:14:33 PM
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noah1902
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My name is John and I have been hired on as a CAT Adjuster for one of the "biggies". I begin an extensive training pgm after the new year and will "deploy" to the Gulf Region immediately after that. My home, wife and children live in Tulsa. After researching this web site I must say that I am humbled by the amount of integrity and dedication to helping others that is apparent from those who've obviously made the sacrifices necessary to survive in this type of work.
I am a 10-year Navy veteran with an extensive background in Critical Incident and Mass Casualty Response and Evacuation Operations, and am very used to being exposed to hardship duty and "high risk" deployments. Having responded to and reported on some pretty horific events in the world this past ten years I decided that CAT work may be a very logical career progression. I am thankful that the "biggie" that I am going to work for thought so as well. I'm very humbled by this opportunity, however I am not so pride filled that I would not ask advice from the CAT veterans out there....
1) I have my BA Degree and am half through with my Masters. Should I put my Master's on hold and concentrate on training classes and certifications/licenses?
2) What would a logical career progression look like if I remained with the "biggie"?
3) In what regard are military veterans in career transition held in the CAT community?
_____________________________
LYFSAVER
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 6:32:22 PM
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Arkansas
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Hi, this is my first post. I'm not a Cat Adjuster yet but am interested and have been reading quite a bit in this excellent forum. I have printed out JimF's article "Newbee Training or How to Become a Pro" and his post about the 5 books needed by CA's. Thanks for the guidance from Jim and all you other pros.
The question posted at the beginning was "How much can you really make?". A valid and important question for someone looking at getting in the field. I considered posting it myself until I came across this post. I know it's a personal question and most seem reluctant to answer with a dollar amount. Maybe the question should have been "How much have you made in a good year?". Still personal but maybe you could give us some idea of what is possible.
I started looking at it because I have a personal friend who attended a 3-day class (Primarily on Xactimate) last Sept and was given orders to go to the Mississippi gulf coast. He worked 3 months and made $40,000. He wasn't the fastest one in his class and some in his class made much more. So, is this typical during hurricane season? Do some of you see money like this? I (and probably most of us) understand that this is seasonal work and that you need something else to do when there aren't catastrophe's.
So, "How much can you really make?"
Thanks
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 6:37:53 PM
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okclarryd
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You guys mention admiration, respect, and a lot of other descriptive words for us old pharts that have been around a while
"Pity" is much easier to spell.
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LARRY D HARDIN
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 6:51:59 PM
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Wes
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To put it quite simply in my opinion, you can not afford to be a Cat Adjuster. If you are comparing cat adjusting to a full time job at another vocation or even a full time job as a staffy adjuster you will loose as a Cat Adjuster. You do however gain other benefits, be your own boss, responsible for your own work product, a few months somewhat free time per year. These are the reasons why I say you can't afford it.
You must pay:
your own taxes
your own medical
your own social security
your own retirement plan
heavy equipment cost
extra vehicle wear and tear cost
The list could go on but I think you see what I am getting at. As mentioned above there are benefits to being a Cat Adjuster but if we are talking purely financial I think you loose as an independent adjuster.
That being said I could personally never go back to a staff or office type job but here is what I have given up and my current situation.
No medical, if I get hurt I am screwed
No savings except what I put aside for taxes
No retirement what-so-ever, please lottery help me out on this
I live in SE Florida so I can't afford to buy a home (I rent) even if I did win the lottery
I do pay cash for just about everything, I have a nice vehicle, I rent a nice apartment. It looks good from the outside to my friends but I know the truth.
Hope this info helps you make the right decision for you.
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 7:29:57 PM
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JimF
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Arkansas
I started looking at it because I have a personal friend who attended a 3-day class (Primarily on Xactimate) last Sept and was given orders to go to the Mississippi gulf coast. He worked 3 months and made $40,000.
It seems to me that your personal friend has already answered your question, at least to your satisfaction, or else you wouldn't be here on this Forum with an interest in becoming a cat adjuster.
There are dozens of legitimate reasons why adjusters here feel that it is inappropriate on a public forum to discuss income and pay. No matter how you ask or phrase the question, you are still asking us to set aside reason and prudence to answer a personal question which might or might not be indicative of what others might expect as a cat adjuster.
You suggest that your personal friend "made" $40,000.00 in three months, which seems to be enough to have piqued your interest. That begs the question of whether or not your friend must pay income taxes from this amount as well as what the rest of us consider to be some pretty high road expenses such a motels, gasoline, meals, vehicle, equipment and software costs. As well as the costs of having to maintain a residence back 'at home' and paying for our own insurance, health insurance, liability and professional insurance, retirement and savings plans, etc. So while your personal friend in his excitement may be stating a 'fact', upon closer examination, that same income amount on a gross basis, could very easily be reduced by costs to much less than half that amount, net to his or her bank account.
Let's also hope that your personal friend is not one of the hundreds of generally newer adjusters who "think" they made X dollars only to discover that their files were rejected by the vendor and/or carrier and received absolutely no pay whatsoever for their cat efforts, despite having spent thousands of dollars on travel and road expenses. Or the great number of newer adjusters who did not take the time to "Know Before You Go" and worked for one of the handful of unscrupulous vendors who will simply grab the insurance carrier's paycheck, run off with the money, and file bankruptcy so the adjuster is left holding the bag. It really does happen and if you will stick around until later this year, you will read and hear more about this here on CADO as these adjusters get a dose of some pretty hard reality lessons.
As I have posted elsewhere on this Forum in several different threads, the 'average cat adjuster' can expect to work no more 'on average' one hurricane and one other storm per year, if that. So if an adjuster makes X number of dollars one year as a cat adjuster, and then does not work the next two due to a lack of nature induced catastrophes, their real effective income per year is 1/3 of X. Plug in even some outrageous income number, then average that amount by those certain years when you will not work at all, and ask yourself if you can survive on that, much less flourish.
Public pressures on insurance carriers by the consuming public and public responsive regulatory authorities have deemed that most catastrophe assignments these days are for the 'average adjuster' going to be of 90 days or less duration. With the ever increasing masses being churned out by the 2 and 3 day claims schools and 'puppy mills' this factor will continue to increase the competition for claims assignments in the lean years when fewer adjusters are needed, and will also tend to reduce income potentials for every adjuster due to overall shorter claims assignments.
I hope you will respect the guidance and suggestions from so many of us here that have respectfully requested that discussion of income, pay, and how much a cat adjuster can earn be done by either private and personal conversations such as you have already had, or through personal yet private conversations with adjusters with whom become acquainted. Insureds, newspaper reporters, television station anchors, public adjusters, plaintiff attorneys, regulatory personnel, and carrier executives who set our industry fee schedules all visit this Forum and on a regular and daily basis. It is not appropriate to boast, brag, or otherwise divulge information which your own doctor, lawyer, accountant or dentist would not share with you in a million years. What they make is no business of yours, and what any of us make is of no business to others.
Obviously, there are so many variables such as background, experience, the carrier or vendor you choose to work for, the nature of the storm, the nature of the claims you are assigned, the number of claims assigned, and even pure luck which can produce extraordinarily different income amounts for individual adjusters. As many of us have said until we are blue in the face, no one should ever get into this profession simply for the money. To do so, will ultimately lead to great disappointment to you and a far greater disservice to families and individuals in their most desperate hours of need.
Just as those who work on a commission only basis in sales, cat adjusters who work hard, work smart, and provide a professional quality product can make a decent living for themselves and their families. Those who work harder and those with more experience and knowledge, generally are those in the upper brackets of income potential. But it is no secret to most of us who have been doing this for a long while, that around 90% of the newbee adjusters who enter this profession will not still be around as cat adjusters in 3 years. That is my own personal observation across many many years in observing and interfacing with hundreds of new adjusters. And if you think about it, there must be some reasons why. I suggest to you that when the myths are stripped away, these new adjusters find the work much harder than expected, the assignments not easy to find, and the money and income no where near on a "net basis" the ridiculous numbers that they (and we, as experienced) adjusters have heard bandied about by a few newbees on testosterone overload or ego intoxication.
< Message edited by JimF -- 2/9/2006 9:28:46 PM >
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 9:00:36 PM
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jge1978
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Home base: New Orleans, La
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Wow, you got offered 250K to walk away from a claim...I have had only one person attempt to bribe me...a good ole boy from way down south in Louisiana...was speaking cajun back and forth with his friend while trying to get a number out of me...lol...I just laughed and told him I would do the best I could under his policy provisions...never heard anything else about it...so I guess I underpaid.
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 9:49:44 PM
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givemeroofs
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnd
Well ARKANSAS, if you are looking to get into the business only as a money making opportunity, I can only tell you I cannot even make enough to buy fuel for my new Lear Jet. I may have to start driving to storms in the future!
Buying fuel for your jet? I got a new Hybrid Jet.....get with the times!
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 10:38:04 PM
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Arkansas
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I don't mean to sound like I'm asking anyone to reveal the secret handshake! I've been a self-employed business owner for 12+ years. To supplement my income during tough business times I got into another field as an independent contractor with a commission only position. But I didn't go into that new endeaver blind. I found out what the commission structure was before I committed to it. I found out what a person could reasonably expect to earn. That helped me to make an intelligent decision about getting into that field.
That's what I'm looking for here and that's what the original question was about. Can a gross of $10,000-$20,000 or more a month be realized during times of catastrophic weather? Even if it's only for a few months out of the year? Was my friends earnings I mentioned abnormal or normal for a cat adjuster after a hurricane like Katrina?
I don't work for the IRS and I don't want anyone to post their 1040's. However, these are reasonable questions you would expect by someone moving into a new field of work. Other CA matters have been discussed in this forum that some would think personal. How much you can expect to make is an integral part of deciding to become a CA.
And of course it's always prudent as several have mentioned in this post to caution those who have never been self-employed about the inherent perils. It's not all it's cracked up to be. But that's true whether it's as a CA or in any area where you work for yourself.
Not everyone can be like givemeroofs with his Hybrid Jet or Johnd with his new Lear Jet! But how much can you expect to make?
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/9/2006 11:14:23 PM
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JimF
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Again, my suggestion is for you to privately contact cat adjusters by telephone, email or in person and ask of their experience privately. My belief is that you will get as many answers as there are people you ask.
Different adjusters working for different vendors representing different carriers on different kinds of storms with different backgrounds/education/experience, on different fee schedules or per diem rates with different on the road costs and with many other different factors having a direct effect on both gross income as well as net income will lead to every possible answer under the sun. And that assumes that everyone will tell you the truth, which you can bet won't happen.
Again, if you can live on the gross amount of income that your personal friend suggests he made in a three month period less high expenses and income taxes, then he has not misled you. Now finding work year after year and storm after storm may well be an entirely different story all together.
The cat adjusters who do this work full time and the cat adjusters with the most experience and connections will generally always be able to find claims assignments except in those leanest of lean years, and the new, newer and newest adjusters will generally find it very difficult to find claims work EXCEPT in ABNORMAL years when there are 4 or more hurricanes and even warm bodies are put into service, if only for that one storm. Many new adjusters, and perhaps your personal friend, may find that they are unable to find their next claim assignment for one, two or more years, until Mother Nature once again causes storms outside of the normal historical frequency and severity statistics.
If money is your driving force in looking at this as a potential source of income, then please do yourself and others a favor and look elsewhere.
< Message edited by JimF -- 2/9/2006 11:20:54 PM >
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/10/2006 10:39:04 AM
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Tom_Toll
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Provided you apply diligence, prudence, and professionalism, you can make an honorable living in this profession. I have been in this business for 46 years now and have loved every moment. Put back 10% of your income per year into a savings account for lean years. Catastrophes do not occur every year, at least big enough to send out thousands of cat adjusters. My first cat was in the 60's while being a staff adjuster. It was scary, but I enjoyed helping others in their time of despair and have enjoyed it ever since. If you get into this profession just for the income, then you are not doing your insured a favor. You must love this profession or you will not be successful at it.
I am in agreement with Jim, in that income should not be discussed here. You don't see politicians or Doctors discussing their incomes on an international web site.
_____________________________
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 2/19/2006 9:04:57 PM
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PORTASATGUY
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I made $45.00..........
_____________________________
R. Estes
Life is short LIVE IT!
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 3/4/2006 2:46:29 PM
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mbrew.2
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John/Noah1902:
1) I have my BA Degree and am half through with my Masters. Should I put my Master's on hold and concentrate on training classes and certifications/licenses?
2) What would a logical career progression look like if I remained with the "biggie"?
************************************************************
John, with your background training, FEMA would appear to be a "sure" thing now after all their problems being exposed the past couple of years. This is not exactly a suggestion in response to your question about doing insurance catastrophe claims work, but your military service would be a credit for working for the federal government, and would NOT be a hinderance to working insurance claims.
I received my BS degree in 1963 and regret I didn't go further. The BS degree of today(2006), is just slightly above the high school diploma in 1963. If you are "half-way" through your MBA education as you say you are, I strongly recommend you complete your graduate studies for your MBA, and you will be well ahead of other job seekers even if you are approaching your 40's in age, not that age is supposed to be a factor, but it is from the standpoint of how many good years you would be productive for any prospective employer. The better jobs are now requiring MBAs for the beginning salaries at or above $50k per year. Also, I would expect the "biggie" insurance carrier would like to see you get your MBA even if you have all the other qualifications they are looking for.
For a married man with a child or more, it will be very difficult to support a family, relying on 3 mos or so"Catastrophe" earnings per year.
Good luck in your new career, from one "boats" to another. GO NAVY!
Mike Br
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 3/5/2006 2:58:03 PM
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JGardner
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While reading the catastrophe section in AIC 35, I came across the following section that echoes crucial insights recently shared by Tom and Jim on this thread:
Emotional Stress p. 244:
"Adjusters experienced with catastrophe environments know that listening to policyholders is valuable. Policyholders who have suffered great loss need an outlet for their feelings. Most experienced adjusters have encountered policyholders who seem to need sympathy more than cash. In addition to relieving policyholders, adjusters help themselves by emotionally connecting with policyholders. Adjusters who regard catastrophe work as relieving human suffering are much more motivated than adjusters who regard the work as closing files."
This is not the type of message that will steer away those in it for the wrong reasons. Yet, this message will become crystal clear to them only after they find that the perks of this job have been sensationalized and are in it too far. Their day job then becomes very glamorous. That is why you hear of the adjusters that fled to Wilma and Rita with claims/appointments left high and dry.
On occasion, I still field calls from 2004 storm work. It is the sincere reminders on this site posted by Tom Toll and those like him that force me to keep my claims approach purposeful.
< Message edited by JGardner -- 3/5/2006 3:39:46 PM >
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 3/25/2006 1:23:33 PM
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Action
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimF
State insurance commissioners, television and news media personnel, E&O insurance carriers, potential jury members in insurance litigation and insureds visit the CADO Forum regularly and your post is a smack in the face to many people including many adjusters. It simply is not a wise move to publicly publish income information which can give the appearance of bragging, bravado, arrogance and insensitivity.
Cat adjusting income figures also don't take into account percentage splits with vendors, the costs of maintaining a household back in the adjuster's state of residence, road, travel and transportation costs, and income net of other expenses and taxes due federal and state government.
We simply have an unspoken code here that we not publicly post such information. Please respect that.
I like your attitude. (I would have e-mailed that...)
_____________________________
Charlie "Action" Jackson
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RE: How much can you really make?? - 4/20/2006 2:41:00 PM
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Stormdame
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No one is going to admit what they did or did not make during Katrina. Some adjusters grossed over 500K, other 20K. The ones who made the 500K don't admit to it cause all of the kinfolks would come running. The ones who made 20K know it will so something, not sure what but just know it must not be good. Now the big question really is can anyone tell me for sure when we will have this kind of storm season again. How long before everyone has to start selling off all of the items purchsed this season just so they can have money to live on.
Asking how much money can you make is not the only question that needs to be asked. We need to ask you how well do you manage your money? How many hours and days can you work without sleep? How many butt chewings can you take before you scream back? How long can you hold out until your first check? How long can you and your family deal with being seperated ? These are some of the biggest questions to ask yourself.
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