RE: Fogged Windows
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 3:50:34 PM
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JGardner
Posts: 322
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Home base: Daphne, AL
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It has been my experience that this matter has more involved than just a seal replacement. These windows have a gas called Argon (Ar) on the inside which serves as an insulating component. If the seal is broken and there's other impurities (such as moisture) that offset the manufactuer's set quantity of chemicals, then it will take more than a min-chg. for one window.
Take down the manufactuer and other id information (usually printed on a decal on the inside of the panes). Replace the window (authority permitting) and explain in both the subrogation section of your report as well as underneath each window's line item of your estimate.
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Jud
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 3:56:37 PM
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JGardner
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Betrock
In Florida we have some pretty violent thunderstorms - wind, driving rain, etc.
Then a hurricane comes along and HO gets foggy windows. All the windows on the windward side are foggy. No windows are broken, but there are missing shingles, some downded trees, etc.
How do you explain to HO that the foggy windows aren't covered? Per the HO, they weren't foggy before, but only since the hurricane. I agree that it's the seals, I just want to know how you persuade the HO that the seals suddenly failed, but it wasn't caused by wind. I got caught up in this argument several times! Please, guidance!
I believe that the foggy windows are covered as the seal is what broke- not the glass. I've had this discussion with a couple of carriers and we all agreed that this was a feasible exception to the wind driven rain exclusion under an HO6, HO2, or for your ISO versions of CP building forms.
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Jud
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 5:42:00 PM
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okclarryd
Posts: 612
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Home base: Oklahoma City, Ok
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What is the direct physical loss to the seal? Flying object? Where's the impact evidence?
Foggy windows aren't covered unless they have sustained "direct loss or damage" from the storm.
I've been doin' this for a day or two and haven't bought one yet.
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LARRY D HARDIN
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 6:05:46 PM
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JGardner
Posts: 322
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The direct physical loss to the window is the separation of the glue from the window pane and/or the sash assembly. This happens as a result of high winds which press up against the window and create a partial opening.
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 6:29:45 PM
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ClaySheffield
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That's kind of how I always saw it Jud. If you've ever lived through a hurricane before, you've seen a window shake a time or two, and it would just seem like all of that direct pressure on the window could reasonably cause this damage by the constant expansion and contraction.
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 6:32:15 PM
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Gale
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In the case of my patio door unit the seal is encased in frame and it was hard to notice at first but over the years has become worse. There was nothing “Sudden” about it fogging up. Out of the 14 door panels only one has fogged up in nearly 20 years and it started after a few years.
< Message edited by Gale -- 8/13/2006 6:37:05 PM >
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 6:52:58 PM
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trader
Posts: 1200
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Home base: Houston, TX
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I would not post that I recommended paying for a foggy window, any adjuster who would think this way, may not recognize surface water and have a very short career .
< Message edited by trader -- 8/13/2006 6:54:50 PM >
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 6:58:30 PM
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trader
Posts: 1200
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Does anyone know what happened to the poor souls working as adjusters in MS that could not see the difference in wind and flood damage ?
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/13/2006 11:36:49 PM
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tiwiii
Posts: 111
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It is hard to say specifically, as it would depend on the circumstances / facts of the claim.
I will say that I had a particular claim (wind w/3" of flood), in which, all of the windows (8) on one elevation had fogged. All of the others were ok. The same directional roof slope had most of the damage and the other collateral damage supported a heavy wind load on this side of the house. I looked at the original photos by the first adjuster and then compared to what I saw during my re-inspection. The windows were not fogged during the first inspection and now they were (6 mos later). This is pretty clear.
These windows have crystals in them that keep the moisture from creating this fog. Once the seal is broken, either from foundation expansion and contraction, wear and tear, wind load or flying debris, they will fog up. It is prudent that an adjuster take into account all the facts and damage scenarios to make a decision or recommendation for settlement.
< Message edited by tiwiii -- 8/13/2006 11:38:41 PM >
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/14/2006 1:05:04 AM
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billparker
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Home base: D/FW Texas
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Same thing happend to me last year. First inspection no fog on windows of elevation shot but lots of shingle damage on same slope. Carrier sent me back out two months later after insured called and seven of 12 windows were fogged on this elevation. Resubmitted origonal photos along with second trip and allowances for reglaze of double insulated windows. Carrier approved allowance and I was able to bill for re-inspect as well as bump in fee bill. This is why it is a good pratice to take good photo's even if no damage was observed. I dont think that supliment would have been paid if I could not show proof of no damage during first inspection.
The carrier that I work for has paid every fogged window allowance that I turned in to them. This re-inspect was during clean up from Rita so things were slower and all files were gone over with a fine tooth comb. So I guess it all depends on who you work for as to wether it is allowed or not..
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/14/2006 9:34:52 AM
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whitesnstripes
Posts: 22
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So I guess it all depends on who you work for as to whether it is allowed or not..
Amen on that. The bottom line here is every carrier is different, every IA firm is different and every Cat Manager is different. Shoot photos, take measurements, identify manufacturers for quality of product and email your Cat Manager. If he says pay for it, print the email and staple it to the file notes for your own reference. If he denies it, call the insured, share the info and close the claim.
Its enjoyable reading a thread which is sharing different scenarios without insulting the posters ideas as "ignorant".
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/14/2006 11:09:30 PM
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JGardner
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gale
In the case of my patio door unit the seal is encased in frame and it was hard to notice at first but over the years has become worse. There was nothing “Sudden” about it fogging up. Out of the 14 door panels only one has fogged up in nearly 20 years and it started after a few years.
Cause, coverage, cost. What was the cause of the fog? Was it from a storm with high winds, a defective seal, or as in trader's point; surface water?
I made the assumption that the cause was Wind- not foggy windows.
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Jud
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/14/2006 11:15:26 PM
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JGardner
Posts: 322
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Here's a link which gives various causes of seal failure. I credit Clay Sheffield for the research and in finding such a short and concise brochure on this topic.
You will see that this is similar to the case of those Lifetime metal roofs. The manufacturer will guarantee it for life provided it doesn't become damaged by hail or excessive winds.
In other words and in most cases: If a Covered Peril damages a roof or window, then the manufacturer's warranty is null void.
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Jud
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/14/2006 11:22:14 PM
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Big Bob
Posts: 185
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The seal that needs to fail for the insulated glass to fog is that 1/4" wide gasket seal between the two glass panes, not the glazing at frame to glass. I wonder what happens in a wind tunnel test?
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/15/2006 1:08:57 AM
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trader
Posts: 1200
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If all five of the largest Homeowner Insurers in the US have sent directives to their employees about seal failure is not caused by Wind/Hail, it seems to me you pro-seal failure folks will shoot your foot and it will hurt your income also.
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/15/2006 3:42:44 AM
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tesseract
Posts: 16
Joined: 2/1/2006
Home base: Denver
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While there is little doubt seal failure can be and is sometimes caused by high wind conditions, Trader makes blunt but accurate points regarding failure of IG units. It is excluded from coverage by interpretation of most carriers and justifiably so. Considering the numerous causes and probabilities of "fogging", we are generally unable to document direct cause by covered peril. In most cases, seal integrity was lost prior to storm, with evidence of failure becoming obvious because of extreme moisture conditions during the storm.
I agree with those possible exceptions where, like previously posted, seals experienced multiple failures on an elevation with direct wind exposure while leaving the remaining window units undamaged. Those conditions are not common and the adjuster that is able to recognize and document it deserves a " WOW" sticker. That said, I am one that will remain very skeptical about including fogged windows in any claim.
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/15/2006 10:06:18 AM
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okclarryd
Posts: 612
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Home base: Oklahoma City, Ok
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I, for one, would like to compliment the posters for keeping on topic.
There's always an exception to a rule, written or not. Recognizing a situation that may not be "normal" or "mainstream" is a trait that most really good adjusters have. Knowing that there may be an instance of covering a loss that otherwise would be excluded or denied is fundamental.
If the loss is properly documented (as was previously posted) and photographed (as was previously posted) there is a good chance that it will be addressed and reviewed by management and a decision made. And, boys and girls, we don't have to accept that decision as gospel. I have called managers many times and discussed a decision I didn't agree with. I won a few and lost many but I always kept it on topic and professional. In all cases, I was being the "champion" for the insured.
I'll probably get to pay for a fogged window sometime, I just haven't done so yet.
The key word there is "yet".
Y'all have a swell Tuesday.
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LARRY D HARDIN
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/15/2006 1:04:03 PM
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Jgoodman
Posts: 29
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Home base: Virginia Beach, VA
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My thoughts on covering fogged windows are above.
Some thoughts on why the fogging might appear after the storm, even if the storm did not cause the damage.
Assume the seal is defective and breaks in April. April showers and spring thunderstorms occur, but none of high intensity or long duration. Now at the end of September, here comes a Hurricane. Several hours of 80+ miles an hour winds blowing water nearly sideways. Under this sustained barrage, the water forces itself through the broken seal. As the temperature gets hot a couple of weeks later, the fog appears.
The damage was not caused by the storm, but was made evident by it.
I have no idea if fogging could occur this way, but it seems plausible.
Similarly, if the wind breaks the seal and the blows water into the panes, this could be seen as a covered loss.
And good luck figuring out whether it was one of the above scenarios, or one of thousand more, that actually caused the fogging.
This is another reason I tell my insureds that while I am the eyes and ears of the carrier, decisions such as these are made higher up the ladder than my position at the bottom rung. I just make recommendations, I tell the insureds; nothing is final until the carrier approves it.
Jeff Goodman
Good Man Adjusting
Goodman Enterprises
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RE: Fogged Windows - 8/18/2006 12:09:55 PM
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JGardner
Posts: 322
Joined: 2/28/2005
Home base: Daphne, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trader
If all five of the largest Homeowner Insurers in the US have sent directives to their employees about seal failure is not caused by Wind/Hail, it seems to me you pro-seal failure folks will shoot your foot and it will hurt your income also.
This is an excellent point. One must be sure to comply with carrier directives. If an unusual situation arises in the absence of a specific directive, then it is best to consult the examiner prior to file submission. If you are still in disagreement and the situation has the potential to bite your a$$etts, then document your file tactfully.
In earlier posts on this topic, I believe that I made it clear that the window seal issue was discussed with the carrier and they allowed payment in each of my specific cases. Granted, there are more times than not where a window seal just fails and direct damage simply isn't present. Each case (claim) has its own merits or lack thereof.
Keep in mind that there are carriers out there who believe that consensus does not necessarily control fact- meaning they don't care what USAA or State Farm does.
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Jud
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