Fogged Windows

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PvtNvestigator -> Fogged Windows (8/11/2006 9:14:40 PM)
Here is a topic that comes up on every major windstorm that I have work and that is fogged windows. I know that after a major windstorm (i.e. hurricane) that there is always claims for moisture between the panes of glass. I have them in my house right now. For the sake of everyone that may have only worked last year's hurricanes can anyone provide a good reason why this is not typically covered by the carriers. There was an article circulating in LA during Katrina, but I was unable to get my hands on it. I thought that this might be a good educational topic to discuss and if anyone knows of this article please share a link if you have it. Anyone?

Storm Duty -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/11/2006 9:45:57 PM)
I actually had a problem with this in Maryland on my own house. We had a tornado cause damage to my property. We then noticed that moisture started building between the panes of the half lite in my living room. The Travelers staff adjuster stated that windows have a 5-15 year warranty and without physical damage to the window, they considered it a warranty issue. Based on how fresh it looked, I would consider it part of the loss. You can always tell if it is old by how opaque it is.

PvtNvestigator -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/11/2006 10:20:17 PM)
If faced by this issue, then I would have to search my HO 3 4/91 to see if I could afford coverage. In this particular case one could argue that it does not fit in the definition of "Property Damage" which is define in this version as "physical injury to, destruction of, or loss of use of tangible property". There was no direct physical damage to the window that would cause the "fogging". Unless one would want to argue that the seals were damaged by the high winds thus allowing moist air into space between the panes. Under Section 1-Perils Insured Against; Coverage A-Dwelling and Coverage B-Other Structures; we do not insure, however, for loss; 2. Caused by: e. Any of the following: (1) ...deterioration; could be used depending on the age of the window. Then again you are back to the warranty issue as Keith stated above. Anyone else?

dcmarlin -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/11/2006 11:24:39 PM)
To the best of my knowledge, fogging is usually a result of moist air entering through a bad or broken seal. Once a seal fails, it is just a matter of time until the window starts to fog. It is rare for a wind or hail storm to damage a seal of a window without pretty good collateral damage. Wind or hail that is able to damage a flexible seal will usually break glass or tree limbs or dent screens, gutters, vents, etc. Seals fail due to many reasons such as, but not limited to, constant exposure to water or excess heat (expansion and contraction), poor quality, improper manufacturing and/or installation and age. All window seals will fail, eventually.

trader -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 1:09:32 AM)
This myth was dispelled about 10 years ago. It is seal failure by all the data from all the engineers and insurance carriers. A good glass company can install a new seal, clean the glass and you are back to as good as new. Just a word to the wise, don't ever pay for one on a windstorm loss.

doppler -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 8:55:08 AM)
I am a newbie as Katrina was my first. So, I have very little experience in this area. I can't count how many denial letters I have on my desktop regarding mechanical breakdown as the COL. I have not paid for any and was told that from the get go. I still have this question in the back of my mind. "Doesn't it seem odd that the windows were fine before the storm but after, they are foggy"? I understand the wind warranty out but, does it really seem fair if the home was purchased by another individual and no warranty exisits? Just wondering.....

ClaySheffield -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 9:17:57 AM)
Hey Trader...what would be the cost per window? Remove & reset costs would be set in the estimating system, but what would you allow to remove & replace seal & clean window for fog?

trader -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 10:22:37 AM)
Last time I saw something from a glass company was in Atlanta in 1995 and it cost about $100.00 for a 4x6 sliding door seal. A window should be less or a minimum glass job. It seems it was not noticed until after the storm. Its in the same bracket as the sidewalk and foundation cracks. Please do not ever write one up, the label of dismissed worm will follow you for a long time. Why does the wind select one window lite and ignore the rest? The foggy cloudy is caused by mold inside that has been inside for many moons. Most double pane windows have a lifetime guarantee for seal failure. You just have to find the manufacturer, or the insured has too. Just remember "if a man made it, a man can repair it".

ClaySheffield -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 10:57:54 AM)
Only problem with that is..what if all of the windows in the home are now fogging up and not just 1? A min charge wouldn't apply on that would it?

PvtNvestigator -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 1:14:29 PM)
No, a minimum charge can not be applied if the repair amount will exceed it. I have seen less experienced Adjusters during cats place multiple min. charges for the same building trade in the same estimate which screams out that they did not understand the purpose of a min. charge. You, as the Adjuster, would have to develop pricing per window. This would not be something that you would normally find within the estimating software on the market, but would have to be developed with the assistance of a glass/window repair technician and added as a write-in line item. With that said, as Trader stated, I would never write one up and try to pass it through. You can google "moisture between window panes" and read up on this topic that was been going on for a long, long time. You will find that the concensus is that the mositure is due to seal failure from a majority of reason and unless you find "direct physical damage" that has altered the physical structure of the window (i.e damaged frame or cracked lite), then it is a non-covered item in regards to the majority of HO policies in effect. Should they be replaced? That is another issue. When I attended Vale National, they touched on the moisture problem in regards to low-e windows and stated that the moisture and hazing (mold) lessens the low-e function and, therefore, the window should be replaced. Agreed...but who is going to pay. Carriers say that the manufacturer of the window should. I think that the manufacturers of economy to medium grade windows purposely fail to put any identifying properties on their windows for a reason. This may be one of them.

trader -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 1:50:02 PM)
You never write an estimate for damage on an item to be repaired, THAT insurance is not going to pay . If all the windows are fogged up , all the windows had seal failure. BUT NOT FROM WIND......

Jgoodman -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 2:16:55 PM)
One of my custom software customers is a contractor who sells vinyl windows, siding and trim. He does not do new construction, remodeling or repair of any other type. Just vinyl replacement windows, siding, trim and gutters. Last year he was ranked in the mid-forties on Qualified Remodeler Top 100 remodeler's in the country. He has been in the vinyl windows business since 1991. Needless to say, he knows a bit about replacement windows. His windows have a lifetime warranty against fogging. The fogging, his supplier says, is caused by seal failure, and is always covered under warranty. If the manufacturers considers fogging a seal failure, no matter what, then there is no way that it should be covered under an insurance claim. If the windows do not have a lifetime warranty, it still does not make fogging storm damage. It just means no one will fix them for free. I have had homeowner's insist this is storm damage on every windstorm I have worked since Erin and Opal. And I have never seen it paid. Which does not, of course, mean it has not been paid for in the past, or won't be paid for in the future. It just means I will never recommend payment for it in any claim I do. Jeff Goodman

PvtNvestigator -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 2:58:26 PM)
Well..there you have it, folks. It can't get any more obvious than what has been posted above by those that have seen this issue come up time and time again. So to recap if faced with this issue on an assignment you, as the Adjuster, would:1. Explain to the Insured that reason for the moisture between thier panes is, more than likely, failure of the seals due to a possible number of factors (i.e. age, temp. changes, lower grade of window, etc.)2. Explain that the windstorm or other relative peril did not cause direct physical damage to the window and, therefore, makes this a non-covered item.3. Explain that this may be something that the manufacture would warranty if they are able to identify the manufacturer.4. Never write an estimate to address "foggy" windows or any other damage that will not be covered. Did I leave anything out?

ClaySheffield -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 4:15:57 PM)
And now you know .....and knowing is half the battle.... YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO JOE

Big Bob -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 7:10:47 PM)
Tell the HO they can work on the fogged up window with a hair dryer. It may stay clear til the moisture gets back in after a short clear view.

CATdawg -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/12/2006 9:37:37 PM)
LOL! Bob, let me know how that goes over with a homeowner! If you receive a favorable response, try this one: Some types of slugs are known to consume mold!

Big Bob -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/13/2006 12:38:23 AM)
Lee, I've done this dozens of times. It works.. Just ask Helouise. This is a temp solution that can be repeated. Try it you'll like it. LoL PS. you known that little water stain in the middle of the great room ceiling? Treat it with bleach.. basic chem tanic acid vs clorhine 1or 2 some times three applications and the stain is gone 95% of the time. oops: I just saved the carriers 5 Billion dollars. I got more but you will need to buy my book. LoL stay safe.

CATdawg -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/13/2006 1:07:08 AM)
Bob, I truly thought you were joshing. I've no doubt that the methods you describe would be efficacious; however, I'm afraid that if I suggested a hair dryer, the homeowner would suspect me of being a smart-aleck (which, as regulars to this site know, can be the case). And my handle isn't "Big" Lee, for good reason.

Gale -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/13/2006 1:34:26 AM)
Once I read there is a way to drill the seal and put in some solution to clean the fogged appearance but that was before I had a patio door panel seal go bad. I used 7 sliding patio units for my sunroom windows and set them 6” off of the floor. If someone runs across a method please post it or just click on my name and email me. I could have it measured and order another glass unit to mount in the frame but it leaves a big hole to pull it. : )

Betrock -> RE: Fogged Windows (8/13/2006 3:03:12 PM)
In Florida we have some pretty violent thunderstorms - wind, driving rain, etc. Then a hurricane comes along and HO gets foggy windows. All the windows on the windward side are foggy. No windows are broken, but there are missing shingles, some downded trees, etc. How do you explain to HO that the foggy windows aren't covered? Per the HO, they weren't foggy before, but only since the hurricane. I agree that it's the seals, I just want to know how you persuade the HO that the seals suddenly failed, but it wasn't caused by wind. I got caught up in this argument several times! Please, guidance!

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