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CATdawg -> Estimate line items-Residential (8/18/2006 10:05:27 AM)

  In the Storm Discussion forum, Kittycat started a thread entitled, "FIRE DRILL" (08/16/06) and requested info from members on how to become better-prepared for deployment.

   I would like to be more specific in this thread:

 1) What line items seem to be most commonly in dispute between adjusters and contractors?

 2) What line items do contractors think are necessary to write a specific estimate that IAs typically leave out? ( please give an example).

 3) What line items drive you admins and file examiners nuts, and why?

 4) Which items or operations are frequently overlooked by the adjuster, thus leaving "money on the table"?

  In replying, please reference a specific question by quoting or naming the question's number.



kittycat -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/18/2006 10:17:38 AM)

Thank you Catdawg... for this is exactly what I had in mind.



trader -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/18/2006 10:45:39 AM)

# 1 Question.  The most disputed by me is sales tax on building coverage is in the data base unit prices for each line item (particularly on x-mate) and SHOULD not be allowed on the last page before the grand total......

Would Mr. x-mate or any other estimating programs be willing to agree or disagree on this forum.?



tiwiii -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/18/2006 10:54:39 AM)

Let me preface my post with this is a general response and not an answer to a specific question posted above.

It seems that as contractor's become familiar and use more and more the same estimating software that we are using, at least for my claims, it is now an estimate component battle instead of price.  The bottom line is the total dollars.  It does not matter what you write  into the estimate (when dealing with a contractor).

Some of the estimating mishaps and "money left on the table" occur when someone does not understand the process of repairs.  You can look a description and this helps, but not in all circumstances.  Then on the other hand you may know what needs to be done to do the job, but the person reviewing your file does not understand. 

There is a lot of profit for roof replacement in most of these pricing databases.  These guys are not hurting, especially commercial roofing (if estimated properly).  Most contractors, if not all, will "nail" you with all they can get because the salesman gets a percentage of the profit.  Bigger profit on the job equals bigger commission. 

However, with that said, there are additional items that are flagged in file review and it is important that you explain your reasoning for the allowance.  An example would be an additional access charge for a building, in which, shingles have to be carted or hand carried because of limited access for whatever reason.  This is a reasonable addition to the estimate, but it needs to be explained in the file notes or on the estimate.  This is a common "best practice" for most insurers and the people in QA positions are looking for this if you have creative additions to common allowances.  I say creative, but they should be considered necessary additions....lol.

I am going to stop here.  This could go on and on.....there definitely is more to the tricks and tips of estimate writing.  Most of which depends the company, manager, state, county or city specific issues.  All of which is learned overtime and certainly can't be conveyed in one response.



givemeroofs -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/18/2006 12:04:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CATdawg


1) What line items seem to be most commonly in dispute between adjusters and contractors?.



When it comes to painting a room, some contractors like to have "remove and re-install" every outlet, fixture, switch, doorknob, etc.  This adds up for an entire house.  I usually reach an agreement by allowing a "mask and prep" charge per sf instead of adding all those extras.

For some reason, it seems silly to see a charge on a sheet of "remove and re-install door hardware" when it can be addressed in a sf charge.



inverse121 -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/18/2006 1:20:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: givemeroofs

For some reason, it seems silly to see a charge on a sheet of "remove and re-install door hardware" when it can be addressed in a sf charge.


gmr, there are a bunch of newbies reading this, I do not necessarily disagree with you, but I am going to extend a word of caution.  Files get reopened for a myriad of reasons and not necessarily that a thorough job wasn't done up front.

If you do as gmr says, please put a comment in your line item that says so, else when the claim reopens with a savvy GC or PA to nitpick the estimate. Those items will get added on top of your masking charge.  Once the carrier offers settlement and a copy of the estimate, its gonna be hard to back down any of the previous adjuster's line item prices.

Try a comment like this "Prep and mask charge is based on square footage of room to include removal and reinstallation of hardware items as necessary."



givemeroofs -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/18/2006 1:25:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inverse121

quote:

ORIGINAL: givemeroofs

For some reason, it seems silly to see a charge on a sheet of "remove and re-install door hardware" when it can be addressed in a sf charge.


gmr, there are a bunch of newbies reading this, I do not necessarily disagree with you, but I am going to extend a word of caution.  Files get reopened for a myriad of reasons and not necessarily that a thorough job wasn't done up front.

If you do as gmr says, please put a comment in your line item that says so, else when the claim reopens with a savvy GC or PA to nitpick the estimate. Those items will get added on top of your masking charge.  Once the carrier offers settlement and a copy of the estimate, its gonna be hard to back down any of the previous adjuster's line item prices.

Try a comment like this "Prep and mask charge is based on square footage of room to include removal and reinstallation of hardware items as necessary."


Please read my post more carefully.  I state that I usually "reach an agreement" with the contractor.  When the file is submitted, the report reflects that information.  Most carriers want an agreement with the contractor on large losses.



Medulus -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/19/2006 12:44:39 AM)

You deal with contractors who write line item estimates???????????????

Unless I'm dealing with one of the national restoration companies, I still rarely see an estimate from a contractor that is not simply a lump sum, or at most a lump sum for each trade.  Among the more common problems I encounter are:
1.  Contractors almost always R & R the roof  with waste added to the removal as well as the replacement.  Insurance companies usually insist on removing only the amount of roofing on the roof (imagine that!).
2.  Exhorbitant dumpster, debris removal and clean up charges.
3.  Exhorbitant charges for moving and resetting contents.
4.  Adjusters often forget neccessary operations like removing and resetting light fixtures, smoke alarms, switch and outlet plates etc. when replacing drywall ceilings and walls or replacing the hardware when one is replacing a door.  These kind of details are not obvious in a square foot charge and are where an adjuster's estimate may be disputed by the insured or contractor.  Spelling it out seems to be a better solution that simply lumping it together.  If it is included in a square foot charge, a note can spell it out.  Simsol allows an option of adding a description of operations to an estimate, but it seems easier to spell it out in line items.  It has been said that "the devil is in the details."  Many adjusters could benefit by taking a few extra minutes to see the details in the room.



racko -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/19/2006 4:03:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: givemeroofs

quote:

ORIGINAL: CATdawg


1) What line items seem to be most commonly in dispute between adjusters and contractors?.



When it comes to painting a room, some contractors like to have "remove and re-install" every outlet, fixture, switch, doorknob, etc.  This adds up for an entire house.  I usually reach an agreement by allowing a "mask and prep" charge per sf instead of adding all those extras.

For some reason, it seems silly to see a charge on a sheet of "remove and re-install door hardware" when it can be addressed in a sf charge.


I'm not picking on you GMR, in fact I agree...but there are instances when stuff like this is overlooked.  When I was a "staffy kinda guy", the carrier I worked for only insured the upper scale (only because they were mostly a commercial carrier, and kinda asked their agents to restrict the HO's to the better risks, I guess.   Seemed like all the HO stuff I got was from the CEO's, owners, employees, etc. of the commercial losses I handled).  Most of these homes were a minimum $250K, which ain't shabby for Ne/Ia.  Anyways', the claims I saw normally already had a restoration/mitigation company assigned because these folks were educated, and so were their agents.  But it really wasn't a big deal, because we agreed what needed to be done.   But this gets me back to your post.... there is stuff that a lot of adjusters will not notice, or leave out.......... R&I doors for R&R carpet; R&I drapes/rods for painting or drywall repairs; R&I kitchen appliances for carpet or wood flooring work; how about ice-maker line R&I?;  it goes on & on.   And let's not forget that dust barrier when resanding the kitchen/dining room floors!

Now, all those outlets you're talking about.......I usually put in a misc paint labor hourly allowance for R&I of those, either per room or per household total.  Kinda gotta be careful how you classify it though, depending on the state because if you use the wrong code it might show up taxable or not, or with O&P or not.   That's another can of worms, though.



danandlea -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/19/2006 1:32:08 PM)

I worked a hail storm in Middle Tennessee this year and half of my tour was in the carrier's office dealing with contractors.  Although their were plenty of "lump sum" GCs, more than half were privvy to adjuster estimates (from insureds who hired them) and even carrier price sheets.  Some went so far as to duplicate line items on their estimates straight from ours.  After the first few weeks, they knew exactly what the carrier would and wouldn't pay for and they took advantage of it to the fullest.  That being said, as a field adjusters, we had to be consistent in our estimates so as to keep the re-inspects and supplemental check writing (time consuming for staffers) to a minimum by being as thorough as the GCs (which the adjuster should be anyway).  In a fee schedule storm, this means less money left on the table by you.  Make sure you get updates on what the carrier is paying for during the first weeks of the job as they often amend their pay sheets.  Be sure you include things like power washing siding and decking if it is warranted, ALL roof flashing and drip edge, scaffolding, limited access, R&I for electric and cable on siding R&Rs, and combing A/C fins just to name a few.  It will put more money in your pocket and save the carrier time and money on re-inspects on the back end.



trader -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/19/2006 3:57:29 PM)

The detail estimate can be biggest drain of reconstruction dollars out insurance carriers claim reserves.

The large National Reconstruction Fire/Water/Wind Contractors have this in art form. Ever item in the house is listed and a measurable unit price is on the detailed estimate/invoice (the same). just like the hospital that charges $3.00 for an aspirin.

Handle regular claims and when you see items like .45 to clean and wash an ash tray by hand and .90 a pair for tennis shoes you will get the picture, when a pack out clean and store and reset runs $50,000 to $75,000 per large house with severe odor and medium smoke damage.  But ITS ALL DETAILED you see the picture.



margar -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/19/2006 5:28:43 PM)

A big one for me is an hourly labor charge for a post construction clean. The labor charge will vary with the amount of damage to the interior of the dwelling. While some Carriers may flag this line item you can be assured the contractors are charging for this.

The national restoration contractors are figuring this on nearly every loss. For example if there are 3 rooms that need to be gutted and paintwork in others. I will usually 2 cleaning technicians for 16 hours for a post - construct clean. This can be found in the labor charge for clean in Xactimate.



Big Bob -> RE: Estimate line items-Residential (8/20/2006 2:36:33 PM)

CATdawg asks:  & be specific.   This is a great idea for a thread.  I suspect that many specific answers will be estimating software choice sensitive. Following answers are from a long time insured loss restoration contractor (mom & pop) that uses Xact.

1) What line items seem to be most commonly in dispute between adjusters and contractors? (The ones that are not there or a better item exists) This is a project specific question.

2) What line items do contractors think are necessary to write a specific estimate that IAs typically leave out? ( please give an example). Ordinance and Law, tie-ins and wall flashing, Vapor barriers, ladder & scaffold work allowance, high quality painting allowance, etc.

3) What line items drive you admins and file examiners nuts, and why? (Allow me to answer for them: DOUBLE DIPPING! example R&R DRY AC when you are R&R DRY ceiling there is no need to remove acoustical texture it goes to the dumpster with the drywall when it is removed.)

4) Which items or operations does the adjuster, thus leaving “money on the table frequently overlook"? (Same as #2)

Acceptance of a line item description is not enough: we must know the programs definitions of the labor, equipment and material components that make up the price. If the task that needs to be done to perform proper restoration is not defined then use the misc. key.

Mr. Ray, Xact and material sales tax: line items do to not include this calculation in unit prices.  I know that you know carriers do not want to pay a nickel more than required. As sales tax is city sensitive the carrier pays the appropriate tax for the location of the loss (if that is where the materials were purchased.)  MS/B appears to have big box store material price plugged in by zip code (to the penny.. without sales tax) a little pity for the poor contractor and the bottomless bag called overhead in to which many related costs get tossed.
Just how long has 10 & 10 been usual and customary?

Content Cleaning line item pricing: I don't charge this way. Why would anyone allow this?  This might work for a few items that the HO is performing, let them work off the deductible.

Time, materials, boxes, and storage are all easy to document. Timesheets signed by workers and copies of payroll records, appropriate cleaning material, packing receipts are easy to produce.  Send those estimates and invoices back and ask for documentation.
Carriers owe to indemnify the insured HO, not pay crazy line item estimates.

ok... that's  $10 million we saved the carriers this week... Lol.. I need to get going on that book.



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