Large Loss adjusting question
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Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 7:36:42 PM
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Angus99
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Joined: 12/24/2004
Home base: Virginia
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Briefly, worked with a fellow i/a handling a large commercial loss. Property insured in excess of $1mil. Appeared a near total loss. The guy i was working with was handling this claim. He wrote an itemized estimate of repairs/replacement in excess of $800,000 or so. The carrier called and pulled the claim because he wasnt able to justify the replacement materials like drywall, flooring, carpet, etc....He left the i/a business shortly after and i was never able to learn from his apparant mistake(s).
So, please educate me on large loss's in excess of $100,000 (for example). What more needs to be done to prove to the carrier that the insured had, for example, 1 1/4" drywall. Or prove to the carrier that the damaged carpet was above average grade. I know about taking a thousand pictures and measurments. If possible, maybe requesting a buidling consultant who can verify prices. What can you share with me (us) that you have learned about handling large commerical loss's.
Thanks is advance.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 8:16:24 PM
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Tom_Toll
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Not enough information there. You said 11/4 drywall. To my knowledge no drywall comes in that thick. Grades of carpet vary. Did he have any notes to the estimate as to quality and how he determined that quality. Just not enough information available to answer your question.
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Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 8:19:02 PM
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tiwiii
Posts: 111
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It seems that there should be a little more to the story.
However, I have always had a rule of thumb when it comes to including above standard or below standard materials.....DOCUMENT IT. Show in a photo the size or type of material, get any expert to determine quality (Itel), and lots of log explanation.
A funny saying when I first heard it was, "If it is outside the lane....explain". Kind of cheesy, but absolutely on point. There is no excuse for not being able to prove your estimate.
If the loss is 800K or $1.00, the file should be properly documented and any question on damages should be answered.
Then again, it seems there is something else going on.
< Message edited by tiwiii -- 9/22/2006 3:22:06 PM >
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 8:29:56 PM
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katadj
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Large losses are sometimes difficult to "Paint the picture" for the examiner. Basically there are no really large losses, just a large amount of small losses in one place.
From the tenor of your post, it would appear that the loss could have been pulled, to replace the adjuster because of the size of the loss, which occurs more frequently than one would expect. This is commonplace with one Carrier that I'm familiar with.
As Tom stated, the information that MUST be presented to an examiner has to present factual and verifiable evidence of the loss. Without that type of presentation, the examiner dismisses the report as incomplete, incompetent or inaccurate.
Large losses require a great deal of inspection, review, investigation, reporting and accurate and acceptable presentation. They must have every "T" crossed and every "I" dotted, because when a claim exceeds a certain amount, (and that varies by carrier) it is flagged for the utmost scrutiny. Large losses are not for the faint of heart or any adjuster without many years of field experience.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 8:31:15 PM
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dcmarlin
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The above says it all. Document it. Take photos, obtain samples, get brand names and model/style numbers, use experts, etc. Keep in continuous contact with the carrier, let them know what is happening with the claim and explain everything and anything that is not ordinary. Your estimate should be backed up by verification and your report should explain. Of course, you need to build a relationship and trust with the carrier as well.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 9:48:58 PM
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trader
Posts: 1200
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Home base: Houston, TX
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carpet, roofing, siding, trim, cabinets are very easy to verify the fair price. Just send a sample back to the factory or Intel.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 10:51:54 PM
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racko
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It is very possible that when your buddy said in his report 1 1/4" sheetrock, it was actually 2 layers of 5/8" inch sheetrock to create a firewall. If he then went on to use both layers in his estimate & was taping/mudding both layers, all credibility was lost and the file was pulled. Just guessing.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 10:58:53 PM
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racko
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And, as quoted by the others earlier....carpet samples can easily be sent to ITEL. A 12x12" sample. Many carriers require this & instruct you as such if the loss notice indicates carpet loss. I don't have ITEL's web site handy right now, but they will send/email you their loss cover sheets and overnight mailing labels. Takes about 2 days for them to email/fax the carpet quality/replacement cost figures for your area.
< Message edited by racko -- 9/21/2006 11:37:47 PM >
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/21/2006 11:24:42 PM
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gordon1
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itelinc.com
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 12:22:00 AM
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trader
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Pulling files is always an option if the carrier has any reason to think the adjuster is in deep water. That is the only way it should be for the stockholders or members of a mutual insuror.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 12:26:40 AM
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swink_d
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quote:
ORIGINAL: racko
And, as quoted by the others earlier....carpet samples can easily be sent to ITEL. A 12x12" sample. Many carriers require this & instruct you as such if the loss notice indicates carpet loss. I don't have ITEL's web site handy right now, but they will send/email you their loss cover sheets and overnight mailing labels. Takes about 2 days for them to email/fax the carpet quality/replacement cost figures for your area.
I know Integriclaim has it has a standard report and I think Xactimate does too
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 12:32:37 AM
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RandyC
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I don't know if they make an 1 1/4 drywall; it would be a nightmare to install. Using a double thickness of 5/8 drywall is common to achieve a sound wall or fire rating (type X). Stairwell walls, partition walls between tenants, furnace walls, hospital walls where oxygen and volatile gasses will be used are usually designed to keep a fire on one side from penetrating to the other side for a time sufficient to deal with it or evacuate people from danger.
Materials in highly specialized commercial and industrial situations come into fashion and go away much more quickly than in residential construction. The needs are so much more varied, and often the latest greatest material solution will not last more than a year or two before its flaws are found out and either outlawed or abandoned altogether. Many times a construction solution will be a one time only application, custom designed for a particular circumstance never to be used again.
Just knowing building codes isn't enough as codes just establish minimum standards which are oft time insufficient for the needs of the tenant. When any of these unique applications, abandoned products or obscure specialty materials is damaged by a covered peril and requires replacement, it's going to take more than a packaged computer database to get the insured back to where he was before the loss. It's going to require a human being highly skilled in research, communication, time management, customer service, negotiation, documentation and common sense. Since all of these traits rarely exist in a single person, the need arises for...an adjuster.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 2:31:20 AM
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rass3742
Posts: 131
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Angus,
The fact the adjuster reported the drywall as 1 1/4" might answer your question. An examiner who sees something like that, especially on an $800,000 loss, should be concerned. 1) he clearly didn’t know what he was looking at; 2) where would he have come up with a price for an item that doesn’t exist? As others have noted above, a double lift of 5/8” is the norm for a commercial fire wall. The first layer should be fire taped, the second layer taped and finished, and joints staggered; that will give the best fire protection.
For anyone who struggles with identifying carpet grades (sending a sample to ITEL notwithstanding), I would suggest the following; when I first started in the business, this was suggested to me. Go to your local carpet wholesaler (a true carpet store, not Home Depot, etc.). Ask a sales rep to show you low-end, mid-level and high-end samples. Then spend some time and stick your fingertips down into the carpet. Get to know the carpet qualities by feel. A low-end carpet will allow your fingertips to quickly move through the carpet fibers and reach the backing. A high-end carpet ($40-$50 wool, for example) will be much thicker and your fingertips may never get to the backing. Mid-level will be somewhere in the middle. As you think you know what a given sample is, look at the price and see if it is what you expected it to be. It’s not scientific, but it will give you a feel (no pun intended) for differing qualities of carpet. Now, granted, the example you have given is a commercial loss and in most cases commercial buildings will have a glue-down or commercial grade carpet, but it’s still a good exercise for those starting out.
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Count your blessings.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 2:51:42 AM
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JGardner
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rass3742
The fact the adjuster reported the drywall as 1 1/4" might answer your question. An examiner who sees something like that, especially on an $800,000 loss, should be concerned. 1) he clearly didn’t know what he was looking at; 2) where would he have come up with a price for an item that doesn’t exist? As others have noted above, a double lift of 5/8” is the norm for a commercial fire wall. The first layer should be fire taped, the second layer taped and finished, and joints staggered; that will give the best fire protection.
Thank you Eric, my thoughts exactly. It is possible that the adjuster put his measuring tape on a cross section of the drywall and neglected to observe the second layer. Regardless, 1 1/4" drwyall? Furthermore, just because you've got a double layer of 5/8" drywall in the hallways or stairwell, doesn't mean you have it throughout the building. The interior walls can change and may have just a single layer. Sometimes, your steel beams will have a triple layer of 5/8" drywall. Every building is different, so you need to know what to expect in big commercial.
Angus, take your experience with this guy with a grain of salt. Be extremely selective about accepting anything he taught you.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 8:54:23 AM
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whitesnstripes
Posts: 22
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I think this is still on topic. Seems like every storm I am asked to do a little more commercial than I prefer to. Although I certainly need the experience, I can close many more residential claims and feel like I am helping more people. I have read many threads on CADO about carriers pulling commercial claims for some reason or another. Are these adjusters fully compensated for the time invested? The carrier has to profit from the work thus far? Acknowledging all diaries, reports and phone calls are timely. Any adjusters with stories of having commercial claims pulled and not being compensated?
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 9:14:49 AM
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Russ
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Home base: Saint Petersburg, FL
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Carriers get uncomfortable in a large loss sistuation. I have had a number of large losses pulled after the initial scope and inspection. But, they always pay an hourly rate plus milage. I had a large grocery store in Kissimmee that was destroyed by a tornado. I scoped the loss and took 100's 0f photos. I set the reserve at $1,000,000.00 because of the structural damage and food loss. County health inspector ruled that all food items were unusable and were to be thrown away. Allstate had a large loss staff adjuster come down from Atlanta and take over the losses and coordinate salvage. I was compensated for my time, photos, and milage. Large losses can be cumbersome and time consuming. It would be nice to bill one on a fee schedule!!!!
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/22/2006 2:36:24 PM
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sbeau4014
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Large commercial losses can and will be pulled from IA's for various reasons, depending on carrier guidelines and/or how the IA proceeds with the claim. I supervised commercial only losses for about 5-6 years in south TX, and in some areas IA's were used a lot. I had a fire loss that came in w/o a lot of detail in the SE area of the state on a large music hall/restaurant/bar. Assigned an IA to it and after his initial scope he called me and recommended paying policy limits which was sizable. I asked the cause of the fire and he said they couldn't tell as the building was a total loss and basically only the slab was left. I discussed a C&O investigation and the IA was somewhat forceful and said that wasn't a good idea as there was so much damage they would never tell what caused the fire. I paid him for his services to that time, fired him from the job and got an IA out there that knew what he was doing. Completed a C&O, pulled hydrocarbons out of about half dozen areas of the slab, completed the investigation and denied the claim for arson reasons (paid the mortgage holder-George Jones- his interest in the building as he was no way related to the fire). Arson denial held up and claim went away. A year or so later, that carrier required a GA on all losses over $250,000, so if the initial reserve from an IA exceeded that amount, a staff or IA GA had to be considered. Was a case by case basis.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/23/2006 12:00:22 AM
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racko
Posts: 228
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RandyC & Rass made excellent adendums to my prior post about the double-thickness sheetrock. Just because you find it on one wall doesn't mean it exists on all walls...it won't. Pull an outlet plate if you need to, and easily confirmed. Same thing with flooring/carpeting....lift out the heat register & you can verify the carpet pad type, underlayment, floor decking type, etc.
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RE: Large Loss adjusting question - 9/23/2006 1:22:59 AM
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Wes
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Home base: Deerfield Beach, FL
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'lift out the heat register'??? Must be a northern thing. lol
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