RE: How do the vendors stack up?
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 9:56:10 AM
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Jgoodman
Posts: 29
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Home base: Virginia Beach, VA
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Five hundred upset people.
If there were 750,000 claims, and if 40 percent of the adjusters were incompetent and screwed the insureds to a criminal degree, there should be 300,000 insureds that received an incompetent adjustment.
If these 300,000 insureds are equally distributed in the affected areas, shouldn't the number of people coming to one of only four gripe sessions with the head insurance guy in Florida be much higher than 500?
And I have read much higher numbers for both claims filed, and amongst some on this site, for percentage of incompetent adjusters.
But, once again, that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Jeff Goodman
Goodman Enterprises
www.stormcentral.com
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 10:01:17 AM
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trader
Posts: 1203
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This debate is about over. The insurace carriers triage all auto,casualty, homeowners, fidelity, bond, and all type first party property losses. Thousands of claims are settled each day that never had a adjuster eyeball the property/site/ claimant; but communicate by phone, mail or email.
The insureds duty is to prove the loss and it,s paid. Its the claimants obligation to prove thier case. If a pair of eyeballs if required the carrier has a right to send a pair of eyeballs out without the title of "Catastrophe Adjuster"
The future is now. The gravy train is ending "stormers"
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 10:18:23 AM
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JimF
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Jeff, obviously you don't believe for one moment that there are only 500 or so disgruntled insureds in Florida?
The article I posted was only one example and other information available to any of us would lead us to understand that the problems in Florida are of great magnitude.
In one of the other 4 townhall meetings, which Tom Gallagher held in the Pensacola area, nearly 1,000 insureds spoke of the problems they have had with their insurance companies. (See the 2/1/05 Media Release from the Florida DFS at http://www.fldfs.com/PressOffice/ViewMediaRelease.asp?ID=1876)
Further, none of us here believe that incompetence is a one way street, and likely for every insured that was underpaid for their damages, another was overpaid. Do you truly expect that anyone will ever hear complaints from them?
The Florida Department of Financial Services has recorded over 200,000 phone calls from Florida insureds as a result of the Florida hurricanes. Want to bet how many of these insureds were calling to brag on what a wonderful job their adjuster had done in servicing their claim?
Have you examined the number of claims which have been reported in Florida for mediation? Or how many lawsuits have been filed? Those numbers are not insigniifcant and are growing every day.
Pick up the telephone and call a few of the file examiners handling Florida supplemental claims and reopens (I have and do this on a weekly basis). If you don't get an ear full about the lack of file quality, the inaccuracy of adjuster estimates, the misapplication of policy provisions, and the overall sorry state of affairs down there then you have reached a wrong number. Their stories are almost beyond belief, even to those of us who thought we had seen and heard it all.
I will concede that not all of the mistakes made in Florida were made by new adjusters. Seasoned adjusters rightfully deserve their share of fault as well. The larger finger pointing I suggest, really should not be against the adjusters new or old, but against the carriers and vendors and an antiquated claims resolution system which allowed this to unfold in the ways that it did.
Finally, simply review a comprehensive examination of the media postings from throughout the State of Florida for these four hurricanes, such easily obtained through internet search engines if you think there is any exaggerartion of my part or the part of Tom Gallagher's and the Governor's office or any of a myriad of consumer advocacy and protection groups.
Jeff, I do suggest to you in all seriousness, sincerity and with all the honesty the answers that my own research have provided that there are indeed several hundred thousands of insureds who have had their claims seriously underpaid, seriously overpaid, and failed to receive proper indemnity due to other pertinent policy provisions simply beyond Coverage A property damage not applied or applied improperly.
Again, if you don't believe me, then spend a few hours on the telephone talking to the carrier clean up crews and file examiners who were left behind to clean up the mess and ask them what the magnitude of the problem is.
To otherwise think the problem is limited and measured in numbers of insureds in the hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands is to bury one's head in the sand and not examine the facts.
< Message edited by JimF -- 3/18/2005 10:30:50 AM >
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 11:17:47 AM
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khromas
Posts: 611
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Let's ALL try to get back onto the subject of how the different software programs compare.
Remember the ad campaign - "Guns don't kill people, people kill people! (Unspoken underlying truth - "They just use guns doing it!)
Competence using the tools offered in the software programs might be better addressed in a different thread.
_____________________________
Kevin Hromas
_______________________________________
Definition of a LIBERAL: a person who is so open-minded that their brains have fallen out!
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 11:27:39 AM
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Wes
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I completely agree that the adjusting situation in Florida is a disaster in itself (maybe we should call it 5 in 04); but given the hurricane situation I just dont see a solution. Bringing in unskilled, untrained, unseasoned adjusters had to be done. If not we would be handling claims until the year 2050 and insureds would not be in their beautiful waterfront homes until then. I dont think that would go over very well with Mr. Gallagher either. What could be done? I see it as a lose/lose situation or better of two evils which ever way you want to look at it and hope for the best.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 12:21:19 PM
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JimF
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Wes, just for argument's sake, suppose the Florida DFS or the Florida State Legislature adopted a rule or law which says that if an insurance carrier adjuster, staff or independent, initially estimates and underpays a claim by an amount greater than 10% or 20% of the gross loss, that the carrier would then be liable to pay and required to tender to the insured the entire policy limits under the insurance policy.
Do you think the way insurance carriers handle claims might finally change then under such a scenario? Do you think insurance carriers would continue to rely on last minute solicitations of untrained and unskilled individuals to serve as insurance adjusters?
Do you think any changes might occur if insurance commissioners and state legislatures adopted laws which impose liability on software vendors where the use of their software damages an insured?
Do you think any changes might occur if individual insurance adjusters were held accountable and subject to serious and severe personal fines imposed per claim file, by a state insurance commissioner for incompetency and/or fraud directed toward insureds or insurance companies?
Would any of you here really be happy if an individual showed up at your door step if you had suffered a major property loss at your residence and you found out this was this person's first storm and perhaps first claim, and then even more astounding, that this person had absolutely no insurance policy or estimating education, training or experience?
Put yourself in these insured's shoes if you want to truly understand the gravity and magnitude of the problems and mess left behind in Florida.
The necessary changes will come when incompetency is no longer rewarding to so called adjusters without training and necessary job skills and no longer rewarded by vendors and carriers but instead is punished through serious fines imposed by state insurance commissioners and state legislatures. And I suggest because of the reticence of the insurance industry to cure a problem of our own creation, that the answers and solutions will come and come sooner rather than later from the regulatory sector. And, we're not going to like them.
< Message edited by JimF -- 3/18/2005 12:32:42 PM >
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 12:50:35 PM
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Wes
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Home base: Deerfield Beach, FL
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I don't know what else to say except for I completely agree, I just don't have a solution. It would be impossible to my knowledge to keep an army of trained adjusters on the ready for the type of situation we have here in Florida (i am a Florida resident living just below hurricane central). The insurance companies can not afford to keep an army like this staffed and there would not be enough work to keep an independant adjuster army of this size busy in a normal catastrophe year (hail,wind,freeze etc.). I would be interested in reading any possible solutions/ideas here in these posts but I can not come up with one.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 7:19:39 PM
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mtmone
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Jim F ---- WELL SAID! (of course I would expect no less from a Carolina Man) I wish I could forward your post to every state inurance commissioner and insurance company CEO's. Regulation will have to come if self policing does not occur. For better or worse. Unfortunately, as in the rest of life, a few bad apples ruin the barrel. I hope you are all doing well. Beth
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 7:53:06 PM
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JimF
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Beth,
Thanks for your kind comments.
BTW, How about those 'Heels?
Have a nice weekend and UNC all the way!
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/18/2005 9:37:46 PM
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Gale
Posts: 739
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Home base: Murray, KY
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Beth,
Until the states have the power to force carriers to do business in their states against their will Jim’s thoughts can’t happen. If the powers to be drive carriers out of state to any extent over a period of time then the voters will drive that group of “powers to be” out of office because of high premiums.
How is it coming with the Isabel claims? Beth for the life of me I can’t understand why they are not closed. While it is not completely off of the “How do the vendors stack up?” subject could you briefly hit a main reason or two there are open files going on 2 years later? Thanks.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/19/2005 11:25:13 AM
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rottingmess
Posts: 3
Joined: 3/18/2005
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some of these long winded posters have way too much free time on their hands. as a longtime staff adjuster/manager at one of the biggest carriers we get our guys right out of college who mostly become competent within 6 months handling an average of 130 claims a month or 1500 annually. in catastrophes we deploy them for a maximum of 3 week rotation.
in most cats we pay off our longtime trusted or preferred contractors estimates before we even use cat adjusters. most carriers pay their claims this way. cat adjusters handle only a small amount of actual losses. staff handles the biggest part by far.
when we use cat firms we assure every claim is fully examined by file reps for accuracy before any payment is made and most of the time changes are made without the field inspectors knowledge. posters in here show plenty of ignorance thinking that cat adjusters reports and figures are not closely scrutinized and examined and pretty much taken as with a preliminary grain of salt. you simply send recommendations or suggestions. the most essential part are photos. we abhor long winded reporting. cat adjusters need to be simply be consise and to the point. we make the final decisions and sometimes we request a 2nd inspector or spot check. carriers are stacked with reinsurance carriers also thus there may be a reinspection from them.
the bottom line is dont take yourselves too seriously. cat firm adjusters are not the final word by any mean but simply inspectors for most carriers.
maybe you need to drop the word adjuster and insert inspector to be more concise.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/19/2005 1:11:06 PM
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trader
Posts: 1203
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rottingmess post above is the only factual post, based on the real insurance world's attitude about storm chasers real worth that I have read in 3 years.
With this said I will just fade away....
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/19/2005 1:30:13 PM
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trader
Posts: 1203
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Thanks for the new title rottingmess: Feel inspectoors and picher takers.
Just coud not resist.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/19/2005 5:16:14 PM
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Tom_Toll
Posts: 560
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Home base: Austin, AR
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Reading the post by rottingmess, and that appears to be a good title for him, his ability to type properly, grammar, and spelling, leads one to believe he certainly did not attend college. I think we all know which company he represents and it is one I would not work for under any circumstances. The companies I have worked for as an independent also check our work. I for one have no problem with that, as it is their money going out and they are always under the gun from re-insurers or company auditors. Everything must be justified in this business.
Rottingmess apparently wishes to impress us with his arrogance and self worth. I have never been an inspector, but an adjuster. Now, I have no doubt that some of the younger, know it all adjusters, should be consider half ars inspectors, that’s whey we are still in Florida trying to clean this mess up. Obviously there are so called adjusters in this business that need weeding out, as they do not have a clue as to what they are doing. That is true on the staff end too, regardless of education. I guess rottingmess thinks a college degree equates to field knowledge on structure, policy, and field manners.
I like Jim Flynt and several others, have several degrees and many certificates. Does that make us two, three, or four times as smart as others? Of course it doesn't. Field experience goes hand in hand with book knowledge. You are not an adjuster in six months Mr. Rottingmess. Give me one of your 6 month wonders and let’s work on a three to five million dollar commercial loss together. I will let your man go first and then scrape him off his college degree when he screws it up.
_____________________________
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/19/2005 5:34:48 PM
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Johnd
Posts: 249
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quote:
Tom Toll said;
Reading the post by rottingmess, and that appears to be a good title for him, his ability to type properly, grammar, and spelling, leads one to believe he certainly did not attend college.
Tom:
Obviously, you have not read some of the latest statistics regarding recent college grads. Something like 30% could not name the country to the south of the US. Over 75% could not name the President, V President, Sec. of State and the Attorney General. If you combine that with the percentage of high school graduates that cannot read, write or speak the king's english, I think you may discover that rottingmess may just be a recent college grad who is trying out his wings for the first time on a public forum. Besides, with the ****py wages paid by most carriers, this is probably about average for an entry level "executive."
_____________________________
Beauty is only skin deep, BUT incompetence goes clear to the bone!
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/19/2005 8:27:27 PM
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mcaldwell
Posts: 56
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Home base: Hempstead, TX
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Gentlemen,
I find your comments offensive. I would hope we are above petty sniping. Rottingmess's post gives insight what some of the major carriers think about us. I do not think it is appropriate to shoot the messenger.
I hate the thought of the carriers thinking of us as a necessary evil. We should be an asset. There are few standards and until that changes, our name is mud. I have blood sweat and tears invested in this venture. I do not want to be lumped in with some jackass with a three day training certificate.
Everything I look at now has a couple of eyes on it before it is sent to the client. That is how it is. Quality control will keep myself and the vendor I work for in a job. If I do a ****py job, I am going home.
The vendors that field quality adjusters and have a strong liaison/file examiner program are going to make it. The ones that don't are going away.
As far as software vendors go. I do not care which one I use. I wish I could mash IC and Xactimate together on my computer. I could then come up with a witch of a program. I would like to see the outlaw estimator that will print any format the vendor wants. It could be like a PDF converter.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/19/2005 9:41:06 PM
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Tom_Toll
Posts: 560
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I will not apologize for my comments, mcaldwell. When I post, my name is on the post and my resume is on CADO. I don't hide behind anonymous and goofy names, I have the guts to post my real name. I don't hide behind skirts or executives and have always told it like it is. Obvousily the companies and vendors are not offended by my words or work, as I work as often as I would like to.
John Durham uses his real name and he tells the real truth. We are graduating intelligent morons from colleges all across this country. The comment he made is correct, and he should owe no apology. All the companies are aware of CADO and I am glad they are. We can learn from them and they can learn from us. They know there are warm bodies out there that want to turn and burn files and then let the pros clean up their messes and messes they are. Florida has a ton of messes by college graduates with 6 months experience, and that is a shameful fact. Jim Flynt has been professing a standardized national test for everyone, as I have. It is not going to happen, unfortunately. The 44 years I have been a licensed adjuster shows me that the companies don't care, nor do the vendors. They leave the training to the individual adjuster. Some adjusters learn just enough to get by and some wish to be true all lines adjusters. Only those with good positve attitudes and a desire to succeed and to be the best really become what we refer to as professional adjusters. The professionals are getting old and are passing on into the casualty cove motel in the sky. Where are we going to find the professionals if you folks are ashamed or afraid to post with your real name and afraid to learn how to do it right.
I stand by my post and owe no apololgy.
_____________________________
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/20/2005 8:06:33 AM
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jlombardo
Posts: 340
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Rottingmess:
I assume that when you indicate that your 6 month people handle 130 claims per month that those claims are mostly small losses handled over the phone???
I also assume that the claims are "daily claims".
Interesting...let's see...37.5hrs per week work time X 4.3 weeks per month =161.25 workable hours per month/130=1.24 hours per claim......and the claim is handled correctly....
Amazing...and God Bless them.......I am an outside all lines adjuster and I handle daily claims for a regional carrier here in the Tampa Bay area of Florida. My territory runs roughly from Spring Hill south to Sarasota/Venice and east through Hillsborough County......I handle only claims handling property damage to real property, whether it be third party or first party......I gotta tell you, It runs me ragged to handle 35 full adjustments in a month....I am tallking about full inspections/AP with contractors/contents/water remediation/mold remediation/proof for ALE/Sinkhole investigations/etc and the beat goes on........The inside examiners will handle the supervision of my files and they will take over the ALE once I get it started, but I gotta tell you, I am busy.....usually working 6 days a week.......example: yesterday I had a sinkhole loss in Brandon......Meet with insured/recorded statement/non waiver/explain coverage/inspect;measure;photo;diagram;scope exterior of the two story risk./inspect;measure;photo;diagram;scope the inside of the two story risk./canvas neighbors on all sides of the risk and drive 60 miles roundtrip on a Saturday through Tampa traffic......needless to say, it was a busy day.....Oh and I have three more sinkhole claims scheduled for this coming week...plus whatever else happens in this area..
So, Mr. Rottingmess, before you open your mouth, know that storm troppers are not the only ones that visit this site.......and I really would like to know HOW YOUR "ADJUSTERS" handle 130 property claims CORRECTLY in a month......
Oh, I meant to shout at you with the Caps......When was the last time that you were on a roof or face to face with an insured at a fire loss in which they lost everything...or face to face, toe to toe with a PA at a loss???
Tom, you get my vote......
< Message edited by jlombardo -- 3/20/2005 8:31:03 AM >
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/20/2005 3:36:52 PM
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Russ
Posts: 96
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Home base: Saint Petersburg, FL
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I love the diversity of this site, and I firmly agree with Tom about posting under your real name. If you are going to use the forum to put forth an opinion, have the Nads to let us know who you are.
I didnt go to college, so I'm naturally ignorant and since my last name is Doe, no one believes I'm real, and by the way I can't change a light bulb without my wife's help.
But, Life is good and I believe we perform a vital function in this world. Who else is willing to work 18hrs a day, 7 days a week for months at a time (on a fee schedule) and then be accused of low balling claims for the Carrier. I love it when a plan comes together.
Joe save some sinkhole claims for me.
Ya'll have a great day!!
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RE: How do the vendors stack up? - 3/20/2005 8:47:11 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
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Home base: Hatteras, NC
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Gale, the claims in NC that I am aware of that are still open are related to first floor issues (style of construction leading to confusion as to where full coverage begins), homeowners still going through the LOMA process, and trying to get supplementals due to initial low adjustments. In MD and VA, it is my understanding that there are still over 250 families spending their second winter in FEMA trailers because of not being able to secure a reasonable offer to repair damage covered by their policies. The stories about NFIP problems that are coming through the website from Florida and PA from the storms this summer are just about a repeat of the ones we heard from "Isabel" and it sounds as if their tolerance level for waiting for payment is just about gone. Perhaps a cloning program for you "best of the bunch" catadjusters may need to be explored :)
JimF -- HEELS ALL THE WAY! Did you see that BLOW OUT today?? and the dookies barely squeaked by.....heee...heeee....
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