RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind?
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/5/2004 10:32:55 AM
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Leam Kincaid
Posts: 52
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mtmone
Mr. Anderson,
Please don't believe all you read from NFIP. Keep in mind, when Mr. Lowe spoke in front of the senate banking committee in March, if I remember correctly, he said there were 80 complaints in Maryland, in actuality, the insurance commission there had over 1000 registered complaints. The numbers will be what they want them to be, since they alone have control of the whole process, how will we ever know? Who is their oversight? I personally know of 12 major claims (over 50 k) that have not been completed.....the small ones paid out quickly, the large ones got the major stall.....just my 2 cents! Beth
***mtmone
If 12% is the percentage constant to work with, then a minumum of 2,880 claims (12%*24,000) may need "reviewing".
If 12% is a constant towards the verified 458,000 (flood-wind-rain) ISO claim data, then a minimum of 54,960 claims may need "reviewing".
Also, many people may not speak up after being traumatically subjected to Hurricane Isabel and then traumatically subjected to their own personal "fair and reasonable" claim settlement experience.
A '99.525% claim estimating and settlement success ratio' is highly improbable or impossible for many, many reasons.
You personally knowing about 12 major (incomplete) claims out of all the people you know who filed may be a good indicator of what the percentages really are.
How many NFIP neighbors do you know of?
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< Message edited by Leam Kincaid -- 6/5/2004 10:41:57 AM >
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/5/2004 12:20:17 PM
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Leam Kincaid
Posts: 52
Joined: 6/1/2004
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You may be assuming too much.
I was speaking to mtmone who would know I was refering to both the NFIP claims and ISO claim total.
The 12% figure may be a constant to apply to the whole 24,000 claims. Simply because people do not speak up does not mean they have been treated fairly or are satisified.
The 12% figure may also apply to the wind-rain victims also.
Human nature being what it is may have many Hurricane Isabel traumatized and claim settlement traumatized victims worn out enough to not want to stomach any more "fair and reasonable" treatment from their carrier-adjuster.
NFIP type "adjusting" principles may have been practiced in other parts of the east coast.
< Message edited by Leam Kincaid -- 6/6/2004 7:19:55 AM >
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 6:17:38 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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Leam,
I was speaking for the most part about flood claims. Even though we had winds 100mph-110 gusts, we really did not have much significant wind damage. I give our local contractors credit for building for wind load, the lack of wind damage attests to that.
I agree wholeheartedly that we will not hear from many of the insured that felt as if they were not covered properly. The notification was handled quite poorly and not as agreed to by NFIP. It would have been better had the May 7th claims guidance document http://bsa.nfipstat.com/wyobull/w-04020.pdf been sent as a cover page for the notice sent to all 24k claims as we had been promised. Why would anyone run the gauntlet of re-opening a claim again unless they felt certain that this time, due to clear recognition of major errors in policy interpretation, they would be realistically paid for flood damages.
Not many victims have the time/energy to fight the continuing battle this has become. It is human nature to put it back together best you can and go on, it’s part of the healing process. The big claims were the slow ones, many still unresolved even after the claims review has been in place for 60 days. There is a problem when the experts cannot even get resolution.
Kile, do you have enough money saved or at hand to pay for 30-50k worth of damages if your homeowners insurance took 9 months to pay after a fire? Do you have money put aside to pay for housing during that time? If you do, God bless you, but our family’s fiscal planning counted on the policies we pay for.
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 6:48:41 PM
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KileAnderson
Posts: 199
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Baton Rouge, LA
Status: offline
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Can you give us any specifics of why the original estimate was so low? Is it because it was supposed to be an elevated building and it did not appear to be? There has to be a reason for such a discrepency. Like you said, why would the adjuster leave all that fee money on the table. Believe me, as an aduster I'm looking to pay for everything that is covered under the policy. My wallet depends on it as much as the insured's does.
< Message edited by KileAnderson -- 6/7/2004 6:49:15 PM >
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 6:53:03 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
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Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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Excuse me Kile, bad example, my fault, please delete homeowners insurance and fire from my example and substitute flood. The POINT of the example however should not be taken lightly. Folks lives have been ruined by the non-payment of covered damages. Our village economy has suffered tremendously due to the lack of timely funds to re-build. Let's see, incorrect interpretations. Perhaps "the coverage starts where the pilings stop" in a piling supported home elevated above ground level. (that was my favorite) as few other of the hits were "direct physical loss means actually touched by floodwater", and "we can't pay any more than the top limit on the price guide". Why these problems after 40 years? I have my suspisions. Heck, we had major flooding with "Emily" 10 years ago and we did not have problems like this then. Please take notice that I refrained from attacking the oft repeated condescending "ya'll should have read your policy"..........Ya'll must thank us suthners caint read a thang......I wonder, do they teach that in adjuster school.
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 7:09:59 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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The loss that was paid today was an obviously elevated building to me, perhaps because I look at coastal construction every day. The adjusters never had an elevation certificate in the file provided for them by the carrier (not their fault, isn't it need to rate the policy?) In way too many cases, BFE was for some reason considered to be the level of ground the adjuster was standing on not remembering how much sand had been deposited on the property by the storm. We have pictures of adjusters measuring from the top of the sand to the bottom of the house then saying the first floor was not above BFE....also as you know in an AE zone top of the bottom floor is used along with BFE....I think one of my questions would have to be why are the carriers using such unqualified/green adjusters when there are seasoned vetrans out there that really know their stuff? There were a few of you that were here, but not many. Previously, I have had great adjusters that were an advocate and an educator, why not these days? I think that may be what has changed.
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 7:19:33 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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Kile, I live in an area that has mostly coastal (piling) construction. BFE of 6ft AE zone. Many of the issues were of first floors built above BFE not being counted as first floors thus denying all contents and allowing "enclosure coverage". An elevated building can have a ground/bottom floor that is enclosed as long as the top of that floor is above BFE. This is not pre-firm construction, the majority were built in the last 10 years or so, to code and with floodplain management that has been given awards for doing such an outstanding job. We know the exclusions and limitations, we are not asking for things not listed in the policies.
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 7:27:17 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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In many cases the homes have pilings running up and through the bottom floor continuing to the second or even third floor. They are a much stronger home in the face of wind and flood. And yes, the floors are above BFE, I have homes where the first floors were at 15ft (with a BFE of 6ft.) that have been denied all but enclosure coverage.
I understand the intent of the "enclosure" guidance and concerns, but there evidently was no regards/teaching of newer styles of coastal construction or consideration that a home needs to be constructed in the best way possible to protect from damages from multiple perils.
Hey, I'm not being argumentative either (actually you did get me riled, I'm better now), but it really was felt as a put down when we kept being told "read your policy" (stupid) in actuality, it was proven we were reading it right. I think reading the adjuster manual may be the bad advise.
< Message edited by mtmone -- 6/7/2004 7:34:44 PM >
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 7:32:59 PM
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KileAnderson
Posts: 199
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Baton Rouge, LA
Status: offline
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Well, in that situation I can sympathize with your problems. There are several problems with the NFIP. I think the biggest of which is a corprate culture that is more akin to a government beauracracy than a customer service oriented organization.
Just as an example, a couple of years ago the NFIP decided to send out these little cards with the adjuster's name and NFIP certification number and what policies they were certified in. These were to be used to identify ourselves and as proof that we are certified flood adjusters. They were also nice enough to inform us that if we should lose these cards we are out of luck. They will not issue you another card to replace one that is lost or accidentaly sent through the washing machine or whatever. You lose it, too bad. A very profesional way to treat the people who you will depend on when the next hurricane hits.
Another thing is the seminars put on by the NFIP. The presenters constantly complain that when they reinspect the claims they are always finding that we paid too much and they tell us that if they find that we overpay a claim they will come after us personally and our E&O carriers. They tell us that they see people paying for 4' of drywall when they should only be paying for 3' because that is all that is necessary. Don't worry that drywall comes in 8x4 foot sheets and that replacing only 3' will probably actually lead to much more wasted material and a heck of alot more labor than 4' will.
As adjusters these are the kinds of things that we have to deal with. We don't only get flack from the insureds, we get it from NFIP as well. Perhaps this is why by the time adjusters have worked enough to reach a level of competence in working flood claims they just don't want to do it anymore. Most adjusters would much rather work any type of claim besides a flood. If an experienced adjuster is given the choice between 100 wind claims and 100 flood claims I'm pretty sure most will take the wind claims. Now most of the time we aren't given such a cut and dried choice and most adjusters will work for the first company that calls when they haven't worked in a few months, but no one looks forward to flood work. Perhaps that is why you are starting to see alot of inexperienced flood adjusters because the pros know the headaches and have simply chosen to take the path of least resistance.
Maybe this will put the adjusters side of the equation a little more in perspective for you.
< Message edited by KileAnderson -- 6/7/2004 7:36:39 PM >
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 7:58:06 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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Kile, I do feel for you all. Your thoughts are somewhat in line with mine. The situation seems like someone has decided to run NFIP or perhaps carrier? With one of those business plans that get rid of (retire early, buy out) the experienced seasoned workers to hire green/hungry to do anything novices that are less expensive as a cost cutting measure. The young ones are easier to "train" I would imagine because they can't stand up and ask why something is being done in a certain way that might be different than in the past. Of course, in the long run, that downsizing philosophy can backfire really quickly making for blunders that can be real expensive to clean up. Hmmm….wonder how much the claims review is costing and who foots the bill? Has the training always been that threatening or have “consultants” been bought in to train? Boy, if it’s the latter, I feel for you. Pencil pushers that don’t know where the trenches are let alone how to work there. How long have you been adjusting? Just reread your post, how can they come after you personally if you have e & o? Isn't that what it is for?
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< Message edited by mtmone -- 6/7/2004 8:02:54 PM >
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 8:05:12 PM
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KileAnderson
Posts: 199
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Baton Rouge, LA
Status: offline
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I've been a catastrophe adjuster for 6 years. I've been to 5 Flood claim seminars and they have pretty much all been the same thing.
They can go after an adjuster personally and then he will have to make a claim on his E&O and then he will probably not be able to afford the premiums anymore. Not every adjuster has that kind of personal exposure, but many do. I personaly am not in that situation but I'm sure if I was I couldn't sleep at night worrying if the Insured was going to go after me for not paying enough or the NFIP would for paying too much.
< Message edited by KileAnderson -- 6/7/2004 8:07:13 PM >
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 8:18:33 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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Who is the "they" that can come after you anyway? NFIP or the adjusting company you work for?
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 8:21:54 PM
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KileAnderson
Posts: 199
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Baton Rouge, LA
Status: offline
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It isn't that bad, but it is on your mind. You don't want to screw up either way. Too low and you make the insured mad, too high and you risk losing your job. You can have 12 different adjusters write an estimate on the same property and you will get 12 different totals. That's why it's called an "estimate" and the powers that be know that. But you dont' want to pay $50,000 when all you really owe is $25,000. That would be bad.
It isn't a direct percentage until the estimate goes over a certain amount. But the fee does go up in stages rather than percentage until you reach the percentage threshold.
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RE: "Isabel", is a Hot Potato headed behind? - 6/7/2004 8:26:41 PM
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mtmone
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2004
Home base: Hatteras, NC
Status: offline
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Yeah, as in anything I guess they have to watch for gouging, theft always will cause costs to rise....but to treat as being guilty before you prove yourself innocent would be stressful conditions to work under, in an inheritly stressul job. What's a percentage threshold? never heard of that either
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