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TCRestore
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 08/26/2003 : 01:47:44
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I apologize for my mistake. I was just hired and had no idea of the error I was about to make. I am so glad I asked before I did such a think I am just now learning the business. Rest assured that such a thing will never never get implemented. I came into this position from land sales where "finders fees" were very common practice. Please accept my sincerest apologies for posting such an uneducated and insulting question.
If I have had any malice and illegal intent, rest assured, I would have done it anonymously and would not have broght this negative publicity to the company that just hired me. Again my deepest and sincerest apologies. |
Avery Morar, Marketing Director
WWW.TodaysConstruction.com
Avery@TodaysConstruction.com
24/7 (714)936-3716
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Edited by - TCRestore on 08/26/2003 08:38:03 |
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TedPasan
82 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 04:41:54
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It is generally illegal for adjusters to accept referral fees and compensation as well as unethical. Please don't insult professional adjusters by offering or paying referral fees.
If you and your company provide an honest worthwhile quality service at affordable pricing, you and your company will have all the work you need, and your referrals from adjusters will come freely. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 06:40:27
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Totally unbelievable, to see this type of thing in print; let alone in CADO.
"Kickbacks" have been part of the insurance claim dollar since JC was a Corporal, but I just can't imagine the wisdom of Avery to seek direction on how their kickback program is best defined.
This practice has been the target of carrier SIU and internal corporate audit departments, on an increasing basis for the last 8 to 10 years.
Avery Morar has labelled Today's Construction as a company actively involved in kickbacks, and has clearly drawn their line in the sand for adjusters.
Those, like myself, who will relate strongly and positively to Ted's thoughts, will avoid exposure to Today's Construction like the plague; but unfortunately the scum spung of our trade will belly up to their trough.
It is up to "us" to expose and deal apporpriately with this illegal practice wherever we see it surfacing. |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 08:25:01
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There ya go... gettin' all riled up with moral indignation without first looking for a way to make some money without doing something wrong along the way.
Honestly, guys, must I always be the first to think about these things?
Why don't we each create a protected territory for ourselves by setting up a 'special' zone for the establishment of gathering phony adjusters who will make these illegal referrals and collect a fee from Todays Construction to do so. That way the only ones getting snookered is the contractor. We'll just be the facilitating middleman. That no real adjusters come forth is not our fault, it's just the sagging economy to blame, but we still get our piece of the action.
Think people, think! Before we lynch 'em, first pick their pockets. |
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TCRestore
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 08:30:06
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| I can't take what I asked back however I can guarantee that when I woke up this morning and read the responses I went into my back yard and burned the file with all the info I gathered on this subject. There was no malice intent just a stupid uneducated question. Again I apologise to all who laid their eyes on my question. |
Avery Morar, Marketing Director
WWW.TodaysConstruction.com
Avery@TodaysConstruction.com
24/7 (714)936-3716
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 08:35:00
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Ya see? Ya see? Now it's going back under the table where it's been all along. And to think that for only a few minutes we had an honest above-board pirate bringing forth the ol' mordida this side of the Rio Bravo.
My tears of joy have now dried back into the sands of sorrow. |
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TCRestore
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 08:47:50
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I apologize for my mistake. I was just hired and had no idea of the error I was about to make. I am so glad I asked before I did such a think I am just now learning the business. Rest assured that such a thing will never never get implemented. I came into this position from land sales where "finders fees" were very common practice. Please accept my sincerest apologies for posting such an uneducated and insulting question.
If I have had any malice and illegal intent, rest assured, I would have done it anonymously and would not have brought this negative publicity to the company that just hired me. Again my deepest and sincerest apologies.
Please do not allow this error to shed a negative light on Today's Consrtuction, this was my uneducated and insulting idea. It was in such a preliminary stage I had not even dicussed it with anyone. NOW I WISH I HAD. I don't know how I will get myself out of this one once the brass finds out. Sorry again.
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Avery Morar, Marketing Director
WWW.TodaysConstruction.com
Avery@TodaysConstruction.com
24/7 (714)936-3716
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Edited by - TCRestore on 08/26/2003 08:49:25 |
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TedPasan
82 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 09:40:29
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Avery, first of all, I took no personal offense at your question as first posted (which you have now since revised). A reading of that post clearly showed your innocence if not naivety and I responded in an honest way to my perception that you were/are new to the industry. Otherwise, you would have known that professional adjusters are bound by certain moral guidelines which would not allow them to accept a "kickback" or referral fee notwithstanding laws against such acts as well. For to do so, would create a "conflict of interest" in not being able to protect the best interests of those who hire us to adjust claims, i.e., the carriers.
With time in your position with your restoration and contracting company, you will learn one of the dirty little secrets of some associated with this insurance industry; that some adjusters can be "bought" or influenced by a kickback or referral fee. Just as in our larger society there are unethical and dishonest people, the insurance industry is not immune to such behaviors. Adjusters, claims personnel, vendors, examiners, and supervisors are all human, and some humans just seem to have weak moral compasses which become skewed away from True North with the lure of a few quick bucks or seduction by something for nothing. Keep your eyes open, you'll learn who they are. Sooner not later they will approach you with their hands out. If any of us here are honest, we know some of them and we either hear or see of these dishonest acts, but yet it continues because we refuse to police ourselves.
Now finally, may I suggest that you do a little research and find the local and state claims associations in the areas where your company does business, and ask to join those associations as an associate member. They will welcome you and it will provide you with the opportunity to get to know personally some of the more successful and knowledgeable adjusters, and through such networking, you will in the long run be able to grow your contracting business without all of the hassles of having to work with the scum in our business who would whore themselves and damage the reputations of all of us.
My best wishes for you personally and for your company's success. And as I said at the start, I took no offense at what to me clearly was an open and honest question, however much it may have been asked in innocence. If others want to ride their high moral horses, let them start a thread for a serious discussion of one of this industry's dirty little (well kept) secrets. |
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TCRestore
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 10:21:21
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| I revised the original question not only in an effort to minimize my humiliation but also because now that I understand what the truth really is I do not believe such a question should even be allowed to be posted. I appreciate your response I just wish I would have been awake to read it at 04:41:54 so I can get rid of the question at 04:41:55. |
Avery Morar, Marketing Director
WWW.TodaysConstruction.com
Avery@TodaysConstruction.com
24/7 (714)936-3716
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 11:19:57
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Yes Ted, it does appear that Avery wrote the blooper of the month (his original unedited post) with honest naivety. It is an awful way to get initiated into the sometimes dark and murky world of insurance claims.
In the late 60's and early 70's, vendor "appreciation" was a normal part of business and all on the table so to speak. As a fledgling adjuster with a carrier doing all lines of claims, between rides in my lovely new Dodge Coronet coupe (burnt orange with black vinyl interior) we went to bodyshops and made agreed prices for auto damage where the losses were under $1000 and we went to property loss sites and got agreed prices with contractors. Come around November 15th to December 23rd, it was common practice for road adjusters to have to empty their trunks about weekly for the abundance of "appreciation" being showered on us by vendors. It came in all forms, from salami, to cheese trays, to fine glassware, to fine liquors; all aside and in addition to the events and frolicking throughout the year.
With the advent of the telephone adjuster in the mid 70's, this "appreciation" started to flow into the office on a regular basis. It was the underwriting and admin types who likely through jealousy at first, started to whine, wimper and complain.
Then with the growth of vendors, competition became more intense, leading to an even more bountiful harvest. Unfortunately, the "new breed" of the late 70's and 80's, became more creative and demanding in the type of "appreciation" they expected; and that practice became tainted and outlawed.
I doubt there is a carrier today that doesn't have a carved in stone "Best Practices" ruling for dealing with vendors, that prohibits any "appreciation" right down to the casual lunch or coffee at Krispy Creme.
So, the old fashioned business practice of "appreciation", to become known as "referral" then as "kickback", died on the floor of greed; and is now in some parts an indictable offense or at least "just cause" for termination.
The covert way in which that "system" still operates fills volumes in internal audit departments manuals, on how to spot those trends and stop it; it is forensic accounting at its best. The last 3 or 4 cases of it that came to my attention this year, were "breach of trust" charges where each case was in excess of $100,000 spread over 7 or 10 claims between the adjuster and the vendor. |
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Wes
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 17:27:59
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| The good ole boys round of golf paid for by a roofing contractor. How many have witnessed this? Should I guess all? |
Edited by - Wes on 08/26/2003 17:31:22 |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 21:23:57
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Let's pry open the lid on Pandora's Box a bit more. The line twixt the Mordida and effective marketing can be more than a little vague. Take, for instance, the techniques of selling the professional services of a nationwide claims service. Are the congenialities of a deer lease or deep sea fishing excursions or luxery resort golf courses in keeping with a true reflection of the quality of services offered by an adjusting service?
Or, is this a matter where hypocrisy allows the top company honchos to revel while they forbid the poor grunt a bottle of booze? Where is the fiduciary responsibility greater, in the board room or on the street? Who has access to the biggest piece of the ill-gotten pie here? Just where is the relevant connection between Clayton Carr's eloquence and professional abilities, and a 30.06 shot at a 14 point white tail buck?
Do ya see what I'm driving at...granted that gratuities for adjusters are wrong, is it not worse for the claims vendors to buy their affections from the carrier honchos? |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 23:43:44
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| It was always a difficult question of where the line was. Lunch was find, golf ok, the bottle of scotch at xmas was ok. But the Texas Mickey the boss got or the plane trip to the flesh pots (LV), did they cross the line. All I know is I miss the free lunches, hockey games and presents at xmas. But I don't miss being an examiner. I did have a roofer last year start talking about big screen tv's, but he never really offered me one (luckly for him). |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 08:32:21
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Avery certainly has allowed us to explore this age old trail, to see where the wagon has travelled and is now travelling; as it seems the other wagontrain this month is sinking in the sands of lost interest.
In hindsight, I think the end to grunt graft was necessary. Like most good things, the actions of a few spoiled it for the many. If I want to give any young nephew a Tonka truck, I'll do it because I hope he will enjoy it and it will get him out and learn to enjoy the dirt pile. I look for nothing in return, other than my hope that one of them will give me a ride in their pickup 15 or 20 years from now when I may not be able to remember my own name. However, for a sister-in-law to tell me exactly what she wants me to buy her kid, hits a real low twang on my chain. This is what grunt graft was turning into in the early 80's.
No longer was it vendor appreciation given, but it reversed in too many instances to grunts telling vendors what they expected - all this in return for a simple working relationship fostered over the year. In my "backyard" at the time, I had vendors coming to me saying that they didn't want to offend Delores or Ed, but that they couldn't afford what they had asked for; and what did I think would satisfy them. My "backyard" was representative of other carriers.
However, carriers are great purveyors of "appreciation" to the sources of their premium dollars, their agents and brokers; aside from various commission streams and contingency profit plans. I was fortunate to be on the "Giving Team", and aside from lunches and lovely dinners there were fishing trips and/or snowmobile excursions and golf resort weekends etc. Again, this is an age old practice in many industries, that is still flourishing today.
The grunt graft became a trust issue in the eyes of management, and rightly so was shut down when it became a tool of abuse by a minor segment of the participants. With what was happening, it could reasonably be concluded that something worse was or could occur, that was or could affect the integrity of loss payments and expenses.
Does that suggest that "trust levels" for management people were that much higher than that of the grunts? Yes, it did and does, that is a fact of life in all industries. That is shown in various ways in all industries, be it in "authority" levels, check signing ability, decision levels, hiring responsibility, accountability; etc. Part of the intangible process is that a management type is considered a "company first" team player with no self interests. It is like you walk through a different door at some point in your career and you morf into a different person, with the sudden ability to corral and control grunts and cherish the protection of the corporate purse as if it were your own. Again, this is not unique to the insurance industry.
Today, notwithstanding current "best practices" for vendor dealings, which all levels of employees are signatory to, "appreciation" is still widespread in the upper tier; but it is no longer in the open or flaunted by either party.
On the regional level, local management enjoy control and selection of lawyers, "experts", car rentals, regional PV's, and some or most I/A vendors. They are listed in the historical order of their known levels of "appreciation" to those who control their access. "Head Office" exposure to this is just another larger trough with different food sources. This "appreciation" has refined itself and is now carefully packaged under the guise of professional development with "fellowship".
Ghost posed 6 questions with his interesting commentary on the subject - 8/26 @ 21.23.
(1) The quality of service in relation to the quality of "appreciation"? Unfortunately this can be more of a contrast that a comparative matter, in too many cases. But, this is a measure of the strength of the person on the receiving end of the prize. Like anyone anywhere on "the ladder" and in any industry, are they along for the ride or do they chart their own course? Can they demand and monitor professionalism and quality results at the cost of the prize or within the prize structure? Some do it very well, most consciously try, and again it is the few just along for the ride that taint the wagon.
(2) I have provided my slant on the hypocrisy issue of grunt versus honcho acceptance of "appreciation".
(3) Obviously the fiduciary responsibility is much greater for those in the ivory tower than those in their Dodge Neons.
(4) The biggest piece of the pie is clearly within the reach today by the honcho type.
(5) The relevant connection between my previous comments of my grunt days versus the "honcho excursion"? It is hard to draw any parallel of any consequence, but the contrast of that is in the last question.
(6) As a grunt, I accepted "gratutities". I looked at them as "thank yous" for doing "my part" in the complete circle that is a claim. Being there when I said I would be to a vendor, not trying to carve normal profit margins from estimates, writing a correct and timely check, and keeping my word when I gave it. All that, I see, as totally different from business being bought in volume on a large and wide scale. |
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TCRestore
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 12:01:36
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Thank you all for the education you gave on this subject. Your constructive replies gave me a really good understanding on how things ought to operate. Now would anyone like to go to lunch, golf, fishing or needs a new big screen TV??? (Just Kidding!!!)
Today's Construction will stand on its quality work and fair prices. But should we come across each other in this line of work please don't turn down a lunch or beer. I owe you all. Best regards. |
Avery Morar, Marketing Director
WWW.TodaysConstruction.com
Avery@TodaysConstruction.com
24/7 (714)936-3716
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LAW1526
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 17:13:35
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Avery, I’m not sure how the other adjusters handle local contractors when they go to a storm sight. Sense I started in this industry I have made it a practice not to refer contractors to my insured’s.
My reasoning has always been the fact that by the time I arrived on a storm and by the time I leave a storm no work has been completed for my inspection. With out working with a contractor and seeing their work product regardless of the appearance of the contractor I can not truthfully tell an insured the capabilities or the quality of any of their local contractors. I always inform my insured’s to contact their insurance agent or relatives and friends for contractor referrals. I do not even refer contractors from the preferred contractors list provided by most carriers.
I have worked with contractors hired by an insured, but normally have never seen the finished product. I perform daily claims work in my home area when I’m home but still chose not to refer contactors. I was at one time a contractor in my home area and know many of the local contractors. I just think it is a bad practice for an adjuster. If something goes wrong between the insured and the contractor guess who’s going to get called for resolution. I receive enough calls from my part of working a claim, as it is. I don’t need to referee a construction contract.
So regarding your offer for lunch, let me buy, it’s always nice to have some one to eat with while on the road.
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