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pilot48
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2003 : 22:20:03
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I've been sent request for work and some very qualified resume's from adjusters from non U.S. country's.
My question is, how do I employ these people and not violate any domestic employment laws?
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cdlynes
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2003 : 22:51:45
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My first contribution....
My response to your question is to employ those of us qualified who are citizens. Seems to be plenty of us ready to work. Take me for instance... |
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JLBarnes
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 03:18:29
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| and me.... |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 08:56:58
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Lee, you have asked an excellent question, and I am pleased to detail an answer for you.
There is a very well defined protocol for American companies to employ "non-resident aliens". I'll limit my comments to that of a "Disaster Relief Insurance Claims Adjuster", (DRICA, aka cat adjuster), as each profession has its own criteria; and I'll also limit the scope of this to Canada and the USA.
First, we have all seen the typical question on any vendor "application form", "application for subcontractor employment", "adjuster application", "employment application", etc, whatever the vendor wants to call their form; "Are you legally eligible for employment in the United States?" Yes____ No ____
Lets assume that everyone marks "yes". Of those Canadians that mark "yes" - within the framework as noted above - many have incorrectly answered, and as a result have put themselves in peril of deportation from the USA without opportunity for re-entry (to work or play) and placed the vendor in peril for considerable penalties; whether done knowingly or through ignorance.
The "employment" of an alien (Canadian) cat adjuster in the USA is dictated by the INS and the NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) and is well laid out and detailed in their Form #M-316.
This document provides understandable "definitions, documentation, procedures for professional status, and minimum educational requirements and alternative credentials".
Following each of those steps for a DRICA (cat adjuster), the following "pieces" are necessary.
Definitions - "#5 Professional, an alien who is a citizen of Canada who seeks to enter the USA under and pursuant to the provisions of Section D of Annex 1603 of NAFTA to engage in business activities at a professional level."
Documentation - "a Canadian citizen seeking status as a professional .... must have the requisite nonimigrant visa inserted into their passport ....".
Procedures for professional status - "a Canadian citizen seeking professional status would present evidence of citizenship, a letter of employment offering employment in professional status, evidence that he or she is in possession of such status ....".
Minimum educational requirements and alternative credentials - "a 'degree' AND successful completion of training in the appropriate areas of insurance adjustment pertaining to disaster relief claims, OR 3 years experience in claims adjustment AND successful completion of training in the appropriate areas of insurance adjustment pertaining to disaster relief claims".
In the real world, this is what I did years ago, and I have never had any border problems of any significance.
(a) have and carry a valid Canadian passport
(b) obtain and carry an American Social Security card, noted as "valid for work only with INS authorization". I don't think this is a mandatory document, but I know it has helped me, and it has no expiry date.
(c) from the vendor that deploys me, obtain a "letter of employment offering employment in professional status". This letter (in my possession normally faxed but ideally by courrier so original can be presented) is usually directed to the INS, is about me, requesting that I be admitted as a "disaster relief adjuster". The letter must state where and why, i.e. whatever state to be deployed to, for whatever hurricane / disaster. The vendor must state that they believe that I meet all requirements under NAFTA, and that the assignment will not exceed one year (regardless if the deployment is vague and could be a month or two). The basics of the compensation must be spelled out by the vendor and that the vendor will ensure that any licensing requirements will be met.
(d) I will prepare a folder of - my resume, past "employment" letters from the USA, certifications, and any other training documents in my name. What I am doing here is complying and proving that I meet the "minimum educational requirements and alternative credentials". I stress that the adjuster should carry originals where logical.
(e) So, I'm deployed because of what led to (c) and I'm packed and headed out to the border with (a to d) in my possession.
Now, the adjuster within this scenario that doesn't have (a to d) will likely not get across the border if they say they are going to work cat claims in the USA. The adjuster that says they are going fishing etc - but are heading out on a cat claim deployment in the USA - are breaking the law and putting themselves and their vendor in peril.
Telling the USA border officer that you are going to work in the USA and that you need a visa, will result in you being directed to the INS people in the border office. They will want (a to d) laid out on the table, they will run your name through the computer to make sure you are clean. In less than 15 minutes, you can walk out of there on your way, with an additional and final required piece of paper - the nonimigrant visa inserted into your passport. This is called a TN, I40 status card, the NAFTA visa for the specific type of work as a disaster relief adjuster; valid for one year.
That is what needs to be done, and is how it should be done.
When I show up at the vendor's office I should let him copy my TN, I40 status card, or the vendor should definetly ask for it. That shows I'm legal, and so is the vendor for having me there.
It is not a big deal once everything is rounded up and done for the first time.
Anything short of this is illegal. |
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pilot48
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 09:17:39
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Clayton, Thank you very much. I'm always learning, even after all these years.
Is there some record of how many out of country adjusters actually come in the U.S. to work storms? |
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TomWeems
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 09:20:57
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| I have worked in Canada twice in the last ten years. Although the NAFTA treaty does make provision for adjusters, during the ice storm of 98, they were somewhat of a Pain in the Ass about letting US adjusters cross into Canada and work. Being treated that way really sticks in your mind. I met many good people in Montreal, some of which are with us still. I wish them the best, and when they go home, I hope they can get their government to develop a better attidude towards the treaties they sign. A lot of people were turned back at Windsor Ont and several other places and only one place in NY could we cross. Bad attitudes on the part of the Canadian Customs breeds resentment... |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 09:22:45
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Lee, I'm sure that the record you mention is found within INS statistics, as the TN, I40 forms are numbered.
However, like other "jobs", you can factor that to account for those that enter illegally. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 09:49:33
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I hear you Tom. Unfortunately the Canadian customs people are renowned for their ignorance, even to their own countrymen.
I know the paper work to get across the border can be a pain, regardless of the north or south travel, and assuming it is a reciprocal type arrangement, I can only stress the importance of having exactly what is needed.
I had quite an experience once travelling through the bridge border at Detroit late one night. I was matched up with one's worst nightmare for a border crossing officer, I swear she was Mimi (size, makeup and personality) from the Drew Carey Show. I had everything I needed, she acknowledged that, but said she only did TN cards for teachers and nurses, didn't and wouldn't do adjusters. Reason wasn't important she said, she had never done one and wasn't going to start that night.
I was left with the alternative to wait for the Windsor / Detroit tunnel border crossing to open in the morning or drive way around and up to Sarnia / Port Huron crossing.
Going out of her office with my tongue bleeding from biting it so hard, another border officer followed me out and called me aside. he said he would let me take I95 north to Port Huron (saving me about 4 hours driving), if I promised not to stop, and that he would phone ahead and let them know I was coming. A great gentleman, a great ambassador. I did this and they got quite a laugh when I told them my story in the Port Huron crossing. They said they normally aloow their junior officers to do TNs for adjusters. I got what I needed there and was headed back to Detroit after 15 minutes.
There are all kinds of people we meet in our travels throughout the continent. |
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Dgowdy
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 15:51:25
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Why are U.S. company's even hiring people from outside the US when there are so many in country adjusters ready to work their butts off?
Doesn't seem fair |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 16:16:41
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Don, I know I stuck my neck out with my posts in this thread, but I wanted the proper answer to the opening question to be clear.
I don't know for a fact that there are "so many" in country adjusters willing and able to answer the call, but yes; on the surface it doesn't seem fair.
However, if you review the minimum education or credentials required to get authority to work in the USA, I suggest to you those minimum criteria places that person or persons within the top one third on the skills and experience scale relative to all people that want to be deployed.
The only few vendors that I have dealt with placed a large importance on skills, training and experience. It is their choice to hire people at whatever skill set they want. The vendors I have dealt with wanted seasoned adjusters, and I have been humbled by many of them that I have met at their storm offices.
If vendors didn't want people with at least those minimum criteria, I wouldn't get phone calls; and presumably there would be enough domestic adjusters to fill their minimum specific requirements.
I know I'm not going to "sell you" on this, but that is the way I see it. |
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Dgowdy
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 18:22:19
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CLAYTON,
Nothing to sell, just didn't know all the good experienced and skilled adjusters lived up there.
I guess after 26 years of doing this, I'm just a "warm body" that is hired (LOL).
Good luck with this storm and thank you. |
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Dorch Horton
2 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 20:25:29
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our canadian friend has posted "I suggest to you those minimum criteria places that person or persons within the top one third on the skills and experience scale relative to all people that want to be deployed"
my first question to the poster is whene/where/why would a canadian adjuster be trained (specifically) in american insurance policies, american insurance law, and american insurance practices?
secondly, if his argument is correct, why aren't american insurance schools training our adjusters in canadian or english or australian insurance policies, law and practices? are the canadians really that much more advanced than we are?
from talking with american adjusters who have worked hail storms in canada as well as many who worked the great montreal ice storms a few years back, their stories about the abilities of canadian adjusters doesn't jive with what our canadian friend has said.
the stories from montreal were that canadian adjusters did not have nor use estimating software and computers. i'm sure our friends at xactimate, powerclaim, msb/integra and simsol could clue us in on how many independent adjusters in canada are customers? and perhaps our canadian friend can share the name of canadian estimating software that they use there that we don't have access to down here, for whatever reason?
it seems to me that despite some similarities between canada and the u.s., that there are still vast culural, political and economic differences, and if i were an insured down in north carolina or virginia or maryland and i found out my adjuster was from canada, i would wonder why? and i would further wonder why the carrier did not send me an american adjuster. i think there are some true red blooded insureds out there who would get upset with this for a variety of reasons.
and finally i wonder if the shoe were on the other foot, if our canadian friend would welcome those american adjusters into canada to displace unemployed cat adjusters there if our adjusters had, as he said, better training, skills and experience? somehow i doubt it. and since our canadian friend as i understand it, was once a canadian claims manager for an insurance company, perhaps he can tell us how many times he asked american adjusters to come into his country to handle claims for his carrier during catastrophes or overload event situations.
finally, i am curious if our canadian friend is coming to america for this hurricane and if so, for what vendor/carrier? |
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Catmandale
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 22:50:18
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Clayton,
It seems that. once again, no good deed goes unpunished. In your effort to inform and assist you have become the great canadian bogeyman.
I understood Clayton to say that, if an individual met the requirements for legally working here, those requirements would also show that the individual was well trained and qualified. At the prescribed level indicated, the person would surely fit in the upper portion of the bell curve.
Dale Strain |
"When we thought that we had all the answers,
suddenly all the questions changed."
Mario Benedetti (1920); Uruguayan writer.
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 22:59:24
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Now, boys...we could also get into the regional squabbles about why the motel parking lots always fill up with Texas license plates, and "why can't an adjuster from My state work my loss and not 'sum furiner' from south of the Red River and east of the Pecos". Lord knows, they all talk funny and probaly eat that nasty beef Bar-b-que and not our real Pig Bar-b-que or clam chowdah.
Fact is, be it anyone, from anywhere, that properly works the loss and is not rude to the customer ought to just go ahead and handle it without the spector of regional differences.
Of course, this does not apply to Texans from Travis County or Oklahomans who can't sing their state song or North Carolinians that work the morning shift at Hardees when you want a quick biscuit and they are practicing their famous slow service...they are at all times, fair game. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 23:04:37
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Don, thank you.
Dorch, I don't know who you are or where you are from, but, I do know that I can not win nor draw in this discussion. However, not to answer your queries, would only lead you to your own conclusions, which I sense would not be shared by me; so I'll give it a try.
"Canadian friend" you say, I am a bit dubious of that, but I'm not here to defend myself for what I have said, however I'll approach it with some yes or no answers and a bit of explanation.
Yes - your 1st paragraph is correct. Study the stated criteria that was established by NAFTA, and peg that stated criteria within 1,000 people in this community who want to be deployed on the coming cat. I don't think many would argue that it would place less than 333rd.
Your 2nd paragraph - in the 1980's, in Calgary, because i worked for the Canadian subsidiary of an american insurer, and because a number of their insureds had US exposure, I received training in american insurance law and american insurance practices. I kept reasonably abreast of that over the years and more so in the last 7 to 10 years when at that time my self employed projects and assignments had trans border issues. I'll take a chance and put my american policy knowledge up as a fair match to your own, or certainly within the top 1/3 of the above mentioned 1,000.
3rd paragraph - I'll consider it a redundant question, the most silly part being the last part - as you are as aware as I am, that we are no more advanced than adjusters in your homeland.
American adjusters working in Canada - I really don't care about those stories jiving, and it is not a comparison to measure what Canadians might have worked in Montreal and their credentials versus NAFTA to work in the US.
Software - I'm not aware of any unique software manufacturer specifically for Canada. We use the systems provided by the majors in the business, with Canadian databases.
Cultural, political, economic differences - you bet! But, I have never been made to feel uncomfortable for the attitude you suggest with your remarks, i.e. no one has exhibited that to me or otherwise suggested it, no matter where I have worked in the US. I see and read a lot more of what you talk about here on this website than I have ever encountered in the field.
Boot on the other foot - come on up! I would welcome american adjusters. I don't see it as displacing unemployed canadian adjusters. If you meet the NAFTA criteria and displace a canuck, so what? All the better to you! I don't see that as displacement, I see that as entrepreneurship and the willingness to earn money anywhere.
No - I never said or suggested that we had "better" training, skills or experience.
I would not have had to ask american adjusters to respond to claims for my employer (an american insurer) as the manager, they would have sent them as there was an international inhouse cat response transborder plan. So no, I never did ask, but there was never a need anyway due to the nature of their book of business.
Finally - I'm still curious to, if I'm coming for this cane; therefore it would be a bit early to say for what vendor / carrier. However, frankly, I don't see the need to expose that vendor / carrier to this.
I hope I have served your purpose as the whipping boy on this issue. I was not and it is not my intention to provoke anyone, I just wanted to clear the air when I saw the opening question from Tuesday night; and I'm not one to shy away from the questions that followed.
I've done a fair bit of work in the US since 1987, and at least 80% of it was non-cat, or in a non-traditional claim environment. I'm a sole proprietor independent business person like everyone else here that is not staff carrier employed. I make no apologies for where my work takes me, nor should you. |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 23:40:38
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| I have many Canuk friends, who work Cat and only oner of them had less then 15 years experience some had over 30 years. The ability to handle claims isn't governed by the changes in wordings from state to state or province to state. The one's I know are professionals and while thaere are not a lot of canuks that I know of working in the US on cats, they are among the most skilled I have meet. We are independent business peoples and should welcome all skilled adjsuters as a benefit to our profession. How many people who are going to work this storm will have the minimum qualifications called for under NAFTA? |
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NON US ADJUSTERS?
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