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tomgriffin56
USA
88 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2003 : 16:12:51
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As I have stated before I was in the Infantry in the Active U.S. Army for 13 years. I went in knowing that we might go to war. I served and was promoted to Platoon Sergeant over the next 13 years. You have to be a fool not to realize in a period that long while training yourself and your platoon for war that it can happen. The one thing we hated while trying to rebuild the Army after Vietnam was the thought that it could happen again and the damned politicos would use our asses as pawns and just dangle us out there but not allow us to use our training and complete the mission.
The armed forces of the U.S. realize the danger of combat. This is drummed into them during training. Anyone that joined the Marines for the education benefits and now don't want to go into combat are just another example of our societies' leeches that have babies so they can get paid for them or are on Welfare forever and don't try to get a job.
Now, having said that, this is very different from some of the examples of wars that are being used. There were several resolutions passed by the UN that have been ignored by Saddam Hussein. Correct me if I am wrong but continued inspections do not constitute "severe consequences" to me, especially when the inspectors are being lied to incessantly. If 12 years of ignoring the resolutions of the UN don't justify military enforcement of these resolutions, what will?
And something else, what credence will the next dictator/lifetime president/etc. lend to a UN resolution if they don't back these up with force.
Don't let the religious rhetoric overwhelm the real issue. There will always be people that jump on bandwagons and toot their own horn. That doesn't take away from the underlying reason for the parade.
Sorry, someone kick this soapbox out from underneath me! |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 19:09:06
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The difference is that this nation is technologically superior. We are so superior that I can't think of an analogy to compare the United States and Iraq. Iraq is virtually stuck in the Bronze Age. While the United States can literally fly Predators and cruise missiles off ships hundreds of miles away, EC-135's, C-130 gun ships, helicopters, Warthogs, stealth fighters and B-52s. Literally one has to see a B-52 in action to understand the incredible mid bending power and destruction those things are capable of. The Iraq's may be the butterfly that goes out to fight, but just because they thumb their noses and are defiant does that make it morally right for a follower of Christ to murder them. No it doesn't.
I’ve stood in the cold rain, while a lone bugler played taps, and folded a flag, taken from a coffin and handed it to a young widow while her kids stood by and I can tell you that whether that widow is from America or from Iraq, she misses her husband and those kids don’t understand.
Once we slaughter the Iraqis, which it seems that we are going to do, what then? Today Texas macho Dubya has started to talk about occupying Iraq. Moving the county toward a democratic form of government. What next, in ten, twenty years is Iraq going to be another Puerto Rico, a state that isn’t a state? What in God's name is he thinking about? Where is his mother?
9/11 is a different atrocity committed by a different enemy and is only connected to this insanity by a slim thread.
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 19:14:24
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| So, Chuck, how will you feel when the next terrorist attack uses chem/bio or nuclear weapons supplied by Iraq? What then? |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 21:17:15
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| Why not pull out and let Saddam take over the countries of his brothers and then go back and take him out and control all of the oil fields. I do not mean "take" them but get a 99 year lease on them for $1 for taking out Saddam. Some one is thinking small. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 22:08:31
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Gale, you are joking, or at least should be.
But, if you look at this thread, it is starting to parallel the attitudes of people in many countries, including the USA.
Just what is the real motivation for this war? The message is not clear, even from the White House.
People around the world, in increasing numbers, are wavering in their support; because the objective of the likely war is not clear anymore.
It is no longer just to enforce UN sanctions. It is no longer just to eliminate a terrorist threat. Religion and Oil, have in pieces and parts entered into the objective cause of this future conflict; as has the thirst to spread and impose democracy.
People are not rallying behind this unclear initiative. The costs, both measured economically and in 'body bags', will be staggering; and will go on for a decade or more.
Too many focus groups have their own agendas for what they want to get or see result from this conflict; that a rallying cause is no longer supportable by the majority of people. |
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mshort68
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 22:11:06
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| Remember, before Pearl Harbor the majority of the people wanted to stay out of the war in Europe as well. Food for thought! |
The grass is always greener on the other side, but it still has to be mowed! |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 23:13:42
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Clayton, the only people who do not see the reasons behind this war are idiots. He has stalled, lied, cheated, obfuscated, and out right ignored the implementation of 17 UN resolutions. Let me recap.
He invaded Kuwait. A soveriegn country and an Ally of the US and threatened to invade Saudi Arabia which would have greatly shifted the balance of power in the Gulf region and jeopardized the world economy. You can't have a madman controlling the worlds fuel supply. The US and a large coallition went to the Gulf and booted his butt out of Kuwait. We had a clear shot all the way to Baghdad but we pulled up short because of world opinion. (that was a mistake)
We brought his generals to the bargaining table and they agreed to a cease fire that required him to totally disarm and allow inspectors into the country to make sure he did it. He was required to declare all weapons of mass distruction and provide proof that he had destroyed them. 7 years later, after harrassing the inspectors, bugging their rooms and out right threatening them and keeping them from being able to do their jobs, he kicked them out of the country.
That was 5 years ago. You can be sure he did lots of nasty things in those 5 years. During those years while Bill Clinton fiddled with his intern, many really bad men started a reign of terror around the world. Our embassies were bombed and our war ships were attacked in port and lest you forget, 3000 innocent lives were taken right here on American soil.
Now I know what you're thinking, that was Al Queda, not Iraq. If you believe that these two are not simpatico then you are probably not too bright and you probably, not being to bright, voted for Clinton and Gore, but that's a different story.
These bad men would like nothing more than to get their hands on the nastiest stuff on earth. Nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. NBC in millitary parlance. Lets think about this for a while. Sadam hates the US and has defied the UN resolutions and wants to get back at us for slapping him down 12 years ago. Bin Laden hates the US and wants to bring death and mahem to our fair shores. As the old saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Arab Islamist fundementalist Bin Laden is quite comfortable in the area of the persian gulf. It is his home base. If he wants to get some bad stuff it sure would be easy to send one of his emmisaries over to Baghdad and procure some. It's close by and he hates the US too.
These are the reasons that we need to take him out. And finally, after an embarassing 8 years of a lying adulterer defiling the oval office and making a mockery of the office of the presidency we have a President with the moral fiber to do what is right, not what is popular. That is something this country and this world desperately needs, because most people in this world are complete and utter fools and have no clear sense of right and wrong. Thankfully the current occupant of the oval office has a clear understanding of right and wrong.
That is why we have all these Hollywood lefties screaming and crying like a bunch of teenagers who were told they couldn't borrow the car. They hate him. When Slick Willy sent the very millitary that he despised when it was his time to serve into harms way in Haiti and Bosnia and refused to support the troops he inherited in Somalia with the weapons that he needed, no one in Hollywood complained. In fact, the outspoken Sheryl Crowe flew to Bosnia with Hillary Clinton and entertained the troops. She didn't have a NO WAR guitar strap then or a WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER sequined t-shirt on. Isn't it funny how old Bill could launch 400 cruise missiles into Iraq or bomb an aspirin factory in the Sudan to wag the dog and keep his lying and purjury out of the headlines and nobody on the left complained. No one asked why, no one asked to see the evidence. What a double standard.
This war will go off, and there will be some casualties, there always are. But as the administration has said, the risk of innaction is far greater than the risk of action. We can lose a few lives now, or a whole bunch later. Which would you prefer? |
Edited by - KileAnderson on 02/26/2003 23:18:40 |
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Justin
USA
137 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 23:31:54
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Thanks Kile, I think you pretty much covered it.
AND let me add once the deed is done in Iraq and the records are laid bare and the reporters start showing the stockpiles of biological - chemical and nuclear then the liberals and the anti-war idiots will be shown for what they are. Remember, liberalism is more insidious and dangerous than communism [which is its precursor] and if not stopped it will absolutely consume and ruin this country. If you think liberalism is so great, then watch Donahue next week on MSNBC.
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Edited by - Justin on 02/26/2003 23:33:26 |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 06:51:17
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Kile, the Press Secretary at the White House needs you!
You brought 'it' all together very nicely, albeit somewhat partisan; but successfully focused on the only two issues relevant to this conflict - UN sanctions and the interwoven terrorist threat.
You made no direct mention concerning the thirst of others who are clouding the issue, with irrelevant talk of opposing religions, conquest of foreign oil fields, or the imposing of democracy; as their goals from this conflict.
Seriously, if a central message of your kind, could be clearly conveyed around the world, while at the same time any discussion on the irrelevant issues is discouraged; 'the people' could concentrate on the importance of the relevant issues; and I suggest the rallying support of 'the people' would follow.
I don't doubt, as Justin has pointed out, that once the 'deed is done', the 'shop of horrors' that lays hidden in Iraq will surface. That will prove the justification for the action taken, and will be GWs prize and ticket for 2004. |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 06:53:51
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Clayton: I agree with your statement, with a little addition I am sure you will agree with.
When the government uses relegious law to govern a people they tend to pervert that relegion to meet their needs to control their people. It is the cruelist form of government and it matters not what that relegion is. The crusades, the Roman Dieties, and now we have the Islamic Extremists.
They don't just attack other countries, it is their own people who suffer most. We cannot imagine the cruel treatment their people receive at the hands of these tyrants, its just beyond our understanding. It is a brain washing that has gone on for almost fourteen hundred years. The reason the Jews were enemys, they were close, and now that the world has grown smaller we have all become enemies of these mad men. If the government let the schools teach relegion maybe they would accept it as it should be, a personal thing. Laws don't have to conflict with relegion, how ever some relegions conflict with the law if in the hand of the tyrant.
We are free to worship a doorknob if we want to, and it is a personal thing. We have no right to infringe on the freedom to worship or not to worship any diety or object.
All that said, no one has the right to use their relegion to cross our borders kill our people and those of friendly nations that are here. They should pay the price and the only thing we may diagree on is how many of the nations under Islamic law are enemies.
This is in reply to the earlier post. |
Edited by - Newt on 02/27/2003 07:25:03 |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 07:40:17
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| When allowed religous freedom a people will become more tolerant, and when only one is allowed that tolerance goes away and extremism follows. Tyrants seem to use it to gain power and keep it in the name of their diety. I am grateful for the many sects we have in this country, it maintains balance. |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 08:17:01
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| Clayton I was joking in a sense. I think I am tried of hearing the guy's name and watching the way he is controlling the actions of men in leadership roles that should be more emotional stable. Evil is evil. Good is good. Somehow some do not see it that way.. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 08:31:59
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Newt, I understand what you are saying, and trying to convey. But, I could care less what or how Saddam treats his own countrymen, or how any other 3rd world country treats their own people. I am anti foreign aid to the extent that the developed countries dish it out proportional to their GNP. It really irritates me when driving through any inner city in North America, and seeing the poverty and disadvantaged people in our own lands; while money is being doled out to and mismanaged by some foreign country.
It is not right, and at times it is sad, what is and has been happening to the citizens in Ireland, Isreal, Iraq and many other countries, for many different reasons; but I don't really care and strongly feel we should do whatever we can to 'help' our own people first before we give money to other countries. The same thought applies to refuge immigration.
However, back to Iraq, the majority of people in the 'free world', need a 'technical' or military type issue to grab onto, so they can relate to and support a large military conflict; that is why I feel the 'big picture' talk should be focused only on the failure to comply with UN sanctions and the terrorist threat.
The US is desperately trying to rally public support at home and around the world to higher levels, for many reasons.
It is no different here with our government, with our piddly navy shipped to the Persian Gulf, and our 25 logistical officers at Tampa being shifted to the Quatar forward command with Gen Frank's HQ team. Every effort is being made here to downplay any relationship or ties of religion to the terrorist threat. The focus is on Iraq and its leader being a terrorist threat to North America.
I'm not going to get into a debate on religion with anyone, especially not within the context of this mess. But, I do sense the public around the world softening their support for military intervention, when religion enters into or ties itself to the terrorist threat.
I believe that if everyone focused on the failure to comply with UN sanctions, and the further - if characterization is required - consideration of Saddam as the 'Hitler' of the 21st century in relation to the terrorist threat; more of the 'common folk' could see a clearer picture and would provide the much needed moral support for military intervention. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 09:30:32
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Clayton, thanks for your kind words. I feel I need to explain why my summary of this situation had the partisan leaning to it. I think that most of the leaders of the anti-war movement in America are motivated by partisanship. The same people who defended the previous administration, no matter how egregious the act was, are the ones who are protesting this so loudly. The same people who quote Amnesty International and call for sanctions against countries with draconian human rights policies are the ones who oppose liberating Iraq. When I hear about how Sadam tortures people by raping their wives and children in front of the whole family, he tortures children, making them scream in pain in front of their parents, he executes people by pouring gasoline down their throats and covering them in it and lights it then shows the video tape to the family, I get a little bit angry. I can't see how anyone could oppose the US efforts to liberate the people this man abuses.
When I look at Germany and France I can feel nothing but contempt. They don't care about Iraq except for the billions of dollars in oil they have contracted to buy from him and the embarrasing revelations about their complicity in his weapons programs that will come out when the yanks come rolling through. France is also trying to maintain it's relevance on the world stage by being a complete bastard, it's the French way.
The thing that really makes me sit up and take notice is the fact that Tony Blair, a man who's political philosophy is to the left of Hillary Clinton, firmly supports our President. Despite the protestations of the vast majority of his labor party and the majority of Englishman, Blair is our staunchest ally. You have to ask yourself, Why? What does Blair have to gain from this. Politically he gains nothing. His own party is ready to throw him out. The people of Great Brittain are firmly in the anti-war camp. What are Blairs motivations for the stance he has taken. The only thing I can think of is, he has seen the evidence and it is extensive, but for whatever reason, the evidence cannot be shared with the general public. Those reasons could be many. Possibly we have a mole,high up in the Iraqi government or millitary, perhaps several and we don't want to burn them by releasing the info because Sadam would surely execute them.
As I said before, I apologize for the partasanship of my prior post but for the above reasons I firmly believe that the oposition we are seeing in this country and abroad is mostly because of politics and ignorance. |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 11:37:10
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Sounds like for the most part we are on different instruments making harmony, every one has good points. I am a homophobic, racist, anti liberal, anti right wing wart hog.
I detest white trash, and Ns (can't say that word).I say I am racist because ther are people of every race that are a disgrace to their heritage. I have good friends all over the world and of all races. I take them on an individual basis on their own merits. I don't have to like anyone that acts uncivilized. I served with too many people over the globe that are like brothers. Religion was never an issue, we worked and played together and soon we didn't even notice we were different. We can't seem to do that in our country, and it all boils down to instigators, the extremists. The Rev Jacksons and the Rush Limbaughs, although Rush is supposed to be entertainment. These people are legends in there own minds and have an ego problem. Everyone needs to recognize what they are doing and laugh. Taking them serious is stoking the boilers and giving them more steam, thus creating more hate and discontent.
Clayton, this doesn't include Red Green, he was an educator and taught me a lot about duct tape.
I now have a favorite show "Waiting For God", a Brit Com that comes on Saturdays. One of my favorites, going way back was "Good Neighbors". I watch Public or Educational TV, not much I care for on the Networks. Especially the news casts, except local. |
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Iraq
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