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Dadx9
USA
143 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2003 : 23:13:23
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Justin,
I expect you to keep things civil unless you want yout personal attacks censored by the moderators. Name calling won't be tolerated. Those are the rules, please abide by them.
Don Elkinton |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 23:13:44
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Kile, the establishing of the demographics, prior to stating the straw poll results is proably worthwhile; to recognize the background of the opinion.
I, like you, have a small close group I 'hang with'. The 'kid' of the group is in his early 30's, the rest in between, with me on the high end. Similar kind of group, hands on working people, but I'm the only one who drives a P/U and owns shotguns. Perhaps oddly, each of us has some close family living in the US or working in Europe.
This little group is all quite hawkish, from 'make it a gravel pit', to 'put an end to it once and for all'. But at the same time, cann't imagine - in reality - the sacrifice made by troops to the cause.
As we watch the pretty ladies walk by, we talk about trying to imagine a terrorist attack happening on the street right in front of us - as is happening in Israel or did happen 9/11. That's a pretty numbing and sobering thought. That makes us come full circle again and quickly realize and reaffirm, that this siutation can not be allowed to continue.
Humbly, we reflect on what the world and US citizens in particular must think of our lack of military strength, or unwillingness to use what we have, or of the stupid (in our opinion) remarks made by our politicians. As I said before, there is nothing we as individuals can do about that; but our little group is embarrassed by it.
Then, half way around the circle again, each of us can mention we know of or have heard in our work travels, about some 'scholarly types', who think that talk and discussion will change something in this issue. But those people never seem to get to the point, or make their point; or we just get bored of listening to them. |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 23:25:35
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| Thank you Justin for proving my point. Don I will also watch my toungue, I am very intolerant of the intolerant. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 23:35:05
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A moderator I'm not, but come on guys, we have had great forums for a couple of weeks now.
Justin, Mark, you fellas are both intelligent men; who have distinct views that are worthwhile to see both sides of. I enjoy them, please don't sully them with barbs at each other.
Point out what you disagree with and why, but no need to get that harsh.
Relating our little world to the big picture, this is a time for us all to show we are capable of considering opposing views.
I feel bad that I may have triggered this, when it has been such a peaceful place for a while now.
If one of you said, "I really didn't mean it personally", the other would likely reply in kind?
It's going to be a troubling world in the next month or so, we have to have the strength to discuss it openly, without insults to others or each other.
Its the Canadian way (except for a couple of our politicians), eh?
One of you two gentlemen step up to the plate, and dust if off.
Oh Kile, I have no idea about the 'zed' and the 'zee', would be interesting what the background is on that.
As for Ham, that's just smoked or cured pig. If you smoke the sides and slice it, you have bacon. If you cure a bit of shoulder and put corn meal on it, you have pemeal. If you smoke or cure a hip, you have ham. It's probably that 'Canadian back bacon' your referring to. That's mostly smoked shoulder, where the name came from I don't know. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
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katadj
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 08:33:29
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Just love the "The Rest of the Story" as Paul Harvey always submits.
Religion and policics, as I was taught, are never to be argued, That being said however: does not apply to War.
We had the opportunity, we blew it, we best not do it again.  THE END.
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Edited by - katadj on 03/07/2003 08:35:16 |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 08:40:29
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| There is nothing person in my views of Justin, I respect his right to his opinions, even if I find them extreme. There are many reasons to take of Sadam, some of them good and some questionable. In the end when it's all over, then we will know whether Bush was right or not. And if he wasn't striaght with us he'll be another one term wonder. Meanwhile, if we ack alone, there is a serious danage of the rest of the world trying to establish a balance of power. That would mean anti American coalitions. We are part of this world (the biggest part for now). Kile, the French have always been the French. I think they are still upset at their showing in the hundred years war. And they have an excellent sercret service. Like we used to do here with dicators we liked, they just offically turned a blind eye. |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 15:21:22
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Mark, so what you're saying is we should go along with the rest of the world, even if the rest of the world is completely wrong and cares nothing about the security of the United States.
I say withdraw fromt he UN and throw all those parasites out of New York. They need us alot more than we need them. |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 15:29:10
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Everyone that wants to delay the war has a reason but is it to support peace or Saddam? It looks like Saddam's money can buy UN members to agree with him better than we can do the same.
Why are the French working to kill our young men and women in such a way, for profits? This may not be a world war but it will be a war that forever changes relationships of the past.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030307-545570.htm |
Edited by - Gale on 03/07/2003 15:32:03 |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 17:05:29
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The reason for our late entry into WWII was a war-phobia in this country at that time. We really felt the axis would be defeated. On the other hand Canada being part of the United Kingdom was called on to help, just as we would call on a state. Thousands of US people joined the RCAF and others that did feel a need to stop Hitler. We lost many merchant seamen in supporting the effort.
I think the wake up call was when Pearl Harbor was attacked. We under estimated the strength of the allies and the power of the axis machine. The world was not as large as it is now.
We did start building our Military up from nothing, and that was the Cadre that we had when we entered the frey. Canada's military were thrown into the war at the onset and had to put an Army together in a hurry. Their losses were almost as great as the Brits. because of inexperience. However they learned fast and became a force.
Our Armies on this side trained with wooden guns, I assume Canada did also, we were not prepared and it cost us dearly. This is a lesson both countries have never forgotten.
I was in my teens when it started and believe me people were worried and it trickeled down to teenagers. It was a frightful time for every one.
Our Army such as it was would not have been much help, at the begining. Canadas force was larger than ours. Ausies were called on to fight two fronts,As was New Zealand.
Back to Iraq:
France will not be paid by Saddam for war materials if Saddam is taken out, he has built up a debt with Germany and Russia also, maybe even China and some American off shore companies we don't know about.
Saddam has enough US military Uniforms to equip his military. Watch for some attacks on his own people that will be made to look like war crimes we commit, we will get the blame.
We may still avert this war, If he sees a no win situation, he is smart like a fox. I would like to see him step down and seek residence elsewhere, even keeping his money. It would save lots of lives. Money can be replaced, lives can't.
We must have compassion for the Iraqi people, they have had over thirty years of rule under a brutal dictator and twenty years of war, the conscripts are innocents caught in the mad mans web. Some are guilty of crimes but none like the elite guard, they are followers and will pay the price at the hands of the people or our men. As soon as they are disarmed, Judge Roy Bean type justice will prevail for a time at the hands of Iraqi people, I think those people have had enough and will never let this happen again if they get out from under the present yoke. Then who knows, tomorrow is a mystery, and history many times will be repeated.
Islam is an oppressive cult and it is their choice, not ours. If it affects us then we must defend ourselves not them. It has been perverted by some groups and individuals.
It started with the perversion of the old testament, by a Camel Driver named Mohamed at the city of Mecca. He was stoned out of Mecca and after the demise of the rich merchant he worked for, he married the widow, who had inherited the fortune. He returned to Mecca and was heard the second time and they believed because of his power. Being a Camel Driver was an honorable proffession, it didn't require education other than cunning to deal in the desert with not only wild animals but with thieves and bandits. Then at the end of the journey he had to deal with merchants. The Islamic testement is much like the old testement in that the same prophits are mentioned and all of the famous patriarchs are also included as their forefathers. So their hate for the Jewish is beyond my understanding. Whether they came from Abraham or Lot we dont know, we only have the ancient writings to go by. My opinion is the People created on the 6th day was a world wide creation of all races. On the eighth day Adam and Eve were created to dress and keep the Garden, thats what it says in the KJV. We don't really know what a day consisted of and take it on faith. This is not meant to influence any one to my way of thinking, Religion is personal, and no ones religion bothers me,..... unless it threatens me or our people. |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 17:47:30
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There's just no need to put ground troops and equipment into Iraq. In fact there is no need to put a single American life at risk.
The 821st Heavy Bombardment Squadron can put 500 pounders to any co ordinate, a thousand at a time. I say find where ever it is that we think these "weapons of mass destruction" are and one at a time, with warning, eliminate them. Then start on Saddam's warrens, give a warning and then bomb them to dust.
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 18:24:39
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I think the plan is to have massive flyovers, thats what is going on now as we speak. I hope Saddam will accept the terms and leave the country and give the country back to the people. They will take care of the elite guard and we will have no further business there. I think this is something we can all agree on. After so many years of oppression those poor folks deserve a break.
It is a shame that with all their wealth that one man should control it all. |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 18:33:08
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After this is over, the Kurds will be the fly in the ointment. They want self determination.
And with the large population in Eastern Turkey and Iraq I don't know what will transpire. I have had dealing with the Kurds in Turkey and they are getting restless. They will have demands and rightly so, but will they go overboard is any ones guess. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 18:35:20
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Chuck, you obviously have never studied millitary history or strategy or tactics.
The millitary has always existed for one reason to take terrain from the enemy. And to do that you have to occupy the land you take. That's where the infantry comes in. Every non-infantry person in the millitary going back to when artillery was a slingshot exists for the sole purpose of supporting the infantry. You can't name a person in the millitary whose job isn't focused on supporting the infantry.
The air force exists to provide bombardment to weaken the enemy's infrastructure and soften the battlefield. Once the infantry is engaged they provide close air support for the troops on the ground.
The Navy exists to deliver the infantry and to keep the shipping lanes open to keep them supplied, they also provide air suport and artillery support.
In the Army, the artillery, hellicopters, logistics forces all exist to supply the soldier who sleeps in the mud and carries a rifle. Even on today's modern battlefield, no body can claim control over a piece of land until he puts his boots on it.
That being said, remember, we bombed the living daylights out of the Viet Cong and they just kept comming. We had complete and total air supperiority over Viet Nam and it didn't matter. The only way ground was ever taken was by the troops on the ground slugging it out.
The Brits had total air superiority over the Falklands yet that is the sight of the last known combat bayonet charge we know of. A group of Brittish comandos was stuck on a mountain, low on ammo, surrounded and because of darkness and bad weather couldn't get air support. The troops were unsure of their location and didn't have GPS so they couldn't call in artillery. Their commander played his last card short of surrendering. He told his men to fix bayonets. They looked at him like he was crazy but they too quickly realized it was their only option and they did it and most of them made it out alive.
In Kuwait, it wasn't until the vehicles started rolling into Kuwait city that the Iraqis turned tail and ran, relinquishing the city. We owned the skies over Iraq for weeks, but it wasn't until the ground forces began the attack that the war ended 100 hours later.
We cannot rid Iraq of WMD without complete and total control over the territory so that we can see what is really there. We know he has it and we know he has it burried in the dessert somewhere, but until we go out there and find it, it will never be destroyed.
In the 90's the US launched over 400 cruise missiles into Iraq, but it made no difference.
In the 80's Isreal flew in and bombed the French built nuclear reactor, much to the consternation and condemnation of the international community. People thought that they were wrong. We know now that they were right on, but they still didn't eliminate the problem.
We will do it, 10 days from now things will start. My thoughts will be with my buddies over there on the ground and in the air and I know I won't sleep for days once it does start. No matter what you believe personally, please, always and forever, support our troops. They are the reason that nobody messes with us. If we let people get away with what has happened lately, it will only get worse. |
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Iraq
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