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Vince Tabor
USA
3 Posts |
 Posted - 12/31/2003 : 17:57:16
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Most insurance firms know the value of the professional claim adjuster and most firms know where their claim dollars are spent. The smart insurance executive also knows the the high cost for legal advice and more importantly the staggering costs of claim litigation. As long as our courts continue to fill their dockets addressing claim disputes caused by lack of inexperienced adjusters, insurers will have to pay huge fees tor their "legal advisors" and pay more court costs.
The trained and experienced adjuster will always provide good value and provide "the proper claim approach" in the field, servicing the insureds, as required. Using experienced claims personnel will always be the single most successful method in keeping claims closed. Top carriers and their investor/shareholders know the value of proper claim resolution and the need for professional adjusters who will make this happen. Lead.....don't follow. |
J V Tabor |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 23:09:26
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It turned out long because I chased a lot of rabbits and you will not like the one I caught so you may want to pass reading this post.
Well this has turned out to be a fast moving tread. Yes, there are a lot of problems in all corners. Logic does not seem to be involved but there are a lot of emotions in all corners. Actually I think it is more of a human thing. Let us face it from time to time it does not seem like a lot of smarts are required to be a claims executive, manager or adjuster. Some in each of these groups do dumb things it seems. I see and hear it from both sides from my position. Companies, where it be carriers or adjusting firms or whatever the business typically reflect the thinking of upper management period. This is gravity at work. Good stuff runs downhill. Bad stuff runs downhill.
I think the name of Pilot appeared in one of the post but any name will do for my question. Why would Pilot or and other vendor send out green adjusters when sharp, highly trained adjusters are available if the pay is commission based 60/40 or whatever number applies. Do carriers really say, “Send us the crappiest bunch of adjusters you can find so they will be so stupid we can blame underpayment on them”. This is not what I hear from the VP of Claims. While all carrier’s will use IA’s to run overflow most will go to great lengths to keep from calling in a CAT company so I guess there have been bad experiences on the part of both parties. While I know my experience may not be typical I do not remember one VP of claims that was just thrilled with a CAT vendor but again they may only talk about what went wrong and not what went right. One has to remember there is nothing positive about a CAT adjuster showing up in the minds of a carrier because you are just a reminded of bad news unless it would be you help keep the insurance commissioner off their backs.
This is even their subconscious view of adjusting software vendors. We just remind them they are spending money they would other wise get to keep if losses did not occur. Sure they know it is part of doing business but just like we all know we are going to die yet we still do not typically get excited about dying but will spend our last penny to delay what is sure to happen.
What drove this home is recently we came out with PowerClaim PV, our insurance to value software in a stand-alone version of what is inside of PowerClaim for underwriting departments and agency use. Some re-insurers state that the insurance agents will typically under cover a risk by about 20% if they just guess at how much the home is worth instead of using a property valuation system. To our surprise in marketing when we would be trying to sell PowerClaim estimating software and not getting much interest until we mention the stand along PV product then all of the sudden they would come alive and want more details.
When they realized we had a well-known PV product for peanuts that would help increase sales by 20% without the cost of getting new customers they become all ears. I am afraid those of us that remind our clients of bad news just have an uphill battle.
I am interested in why vendors/carriers would be interested in not using the best adjusters they can find other than because they just want ignorant adjusters. Maybe adjusting just does not require that much of a skill set. If adjusters say PA’s are not needed then how come there are so many. Some perceive the need for some reason. Maybe it is just marketing by PA’s.
Folks if you can adjust without a licenses being required then it is not a profession at all period. I just had an employee in Customer Support leave today that earned her degree in Interior Design and landed a job with a firm a few hours away. She has to work for 2 years with a firm before she can even become certified by the states in which she wishes to practice her profession even after 4 years of college earning her degree in Interior Design.
Come on guys until you step up to the plate and turn adjusting into a profession in a legal sense in the United States of America you can keep wondering what is happening. I heard some make things happen, some watch things happen and some just wonder what happened. As Vince stated you need to lead.
Why to you think you can be more lazy than the dentist, well diggers, optometrist, school teachers, lawyers, plumbers, etc. Every true profession had to bite the bullet and spend the dollars and the hours in each state capital to get what they wanted.
You have NO control over the skills of those that call themselves adjusters. When adjusting becomes a profession you will have that control. A board of peers will see to it and then the worse of the lot will not be establishing your value, as may be the case today.
I am not talking about a union here but professional organizations that have legal status and the power to control who adjust and who does not. Just pick one state and start. It may take 20 years to cover the country and many of you may be dead but someone has to start sometime somewhere. Amway states you can whine or make money but you can’t do both at the same time.
There is a price to be paid now to get what you want but whining cost nothing now but everything later. This is America where one generation tries to make things better for the next generation. Are you Americans or not?
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 07:43:07
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| !EXCELLENTE! !Muy mucho EXCELLENTE! |
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okclarryd
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 08:36:33
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Gale, this is one of the most focused and intelligent postings I've seen here. And, I, like you, don't know for sure what the answer might be. You certainly make some positive points and have some very valid suggestions and recommendations. I would like to see the profession become one that is recognized, but probably will not see it in my lifetime.
The adjuster has always been and will probably always be a necessary evil to the insurance industry. I have worked for companies as a staff adjuster that would reluctantly give raises to the adjusting staff but would spend millions for a new shiny building in order to keep up with the competition.
I have been denied a raise because I chewed gum in the office.
I have been denied a raise because I was involved in a non-chargable auto accident in a company car. (Hit in the side by the 3rd party that ran a red light)
The list of gripes and complaints would lock up AOL and MSN for weeks if we all posted them.
The point is, we are the personel that the insurance company DO NOT WANT. It's just part of the process. They make the money and we give it away.
Until the profession is recognized as one, these and all the other abuses will continue.
I still enjoy my job, make a very nice living doing cat work (did NOT make a nice living as a staff adjuster), and generally think my life is just pretty darn good. I have accepted the pecking order within the insurance industry as pretty much set in stone and don't have any issues with it now.
If any of you higher thinkers can come up with a relatively quick fix for this, let me know and I'll hold the clipboard or the flashlight or whatever it takes to make it happen. Otherwise, let's all have a happy and safe New Year. |
LARRY D HARDIN |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 10:22:27
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| My 1st day in the industry (as an underwriting trainee) I was given the career talk, how through underwriting or eventually as a marketing rep I could work my way into management, then I was told that there was also the claims department. When I woke up and got into claims I did so knowing that I was no longer in the career path. Management will spend unending $ on lawyers, accountants, engineers etc; as long as they are seen as experts. Gale you are on track. As long as a newbe with 10 minutes training is a full fledged Cat adjuster, how can we expect to be taken seriously. As long as to 20 year adjuster telephone adjusts his files from another state, or a "General Adjuster" berates an insured for not having his estimates during first inspection and never leaves the ground, or as long as a flood adjuster cold calls a risk long after dark and determines damages below deductible in 5 minutes; and we have no way to correct or disipline as a group do not expect to be taken seriously.Meanwhile those of us who can adjust a little will always find work (including cleanup). Happy new year to all from the edge of the Chesapeake. |
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katadj
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 11:51:46
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Several of the "Old Guard" members of CADO, have been preaching this approach for years, to NO AVAIL.
Gale, GB, OTD, JF,OK, and numerous others. It seems the tides of change, which we favor, are always running in the opposite direction.
As a group we are considered an un-allocated expense, while staff, lawyers, and experts, irrespective of costs, are an allocated expense.
The cost of litigation, with all of the associated expenses may cost $100,000.00, when a competent professional adjuster could have settled, (And not reopened) a claim for perhaps $25,000.00.
Perhaps someone in the ivory towers, can explain the SAVINGS to the company, in a language that can be understood by a layman? 100-25 = 75 why is this more cost effective?
Many have advocated the formation of some kind of association, group, etc, but no one has has had the fortitude to lead this pack of totally independent freethinking varmints. Can it be done? Will it be easy?
No way, but it must be done.
IMHO, there is one (1) way to bring our plight to the table. This will not be popular, and probably not considered, accepted nor opted.
The way is to REFUSE all assignments, no matter the offer for 60-90 days.
IF, each of us were faced with a situation that would not allow us to work: health, injury, market conditions etc. Would we survive? Of course we would, we are the ultimate survivors.
Some may think this would be a strike of sorts, is it any less than the "lockout" we are facing from the IA/Carriers?
Will some of us suffer, surely? BUT, if we do not hang together we shall all hang separately.
How can we continue to verbally voice our discontent, and still work our tails off for a mere pittance? Are we ALL so dependent on this “profession” that we could not make a living doing something else? Are we all afraid of the “big bad wolf” in sheep’s clothing?
Throw your hats into the ring, challenge the “system”, be all you can be, and be FREE.
I am forced to wonder how America became the greatest power on earth, if all of those that have led this nation were “un-allocated expenses” such as we.
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Edited by - katadj on 01/01/2004 11:58:43 |
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MRichardson1952
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 12:50:13
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I agree with so much of what you've said, except one thing, if I may. I don't feel it's fair to call the hard working, well studied and educated adjusters "non-professionals", just because the state they live in elects, for whatever reason, not to license them.
Certainly you're not saying that the mere holding of a state license makes you a professional, are you? |
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DonP
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 13:09:54
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| I, once asked the one in charge of assigning out adjusters why they were sending out the newbes, her answer was that they were keeping the more seasoned adjusters in reserve in the event there was a large cat and they needed them to handle the large losses. |
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DonP
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 13:17:31
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| Her exact comment was, "YOU GUYS ARE OUR ACE IN THE HOLE." |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 13:35:59
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Adjuster licensing by a(ny) state has very little if anything to do with the adjuster's degree of knowledge or quality of service provided to an insured.
Some of the worst adjusters I have ever seen (from working around them or cleaning up their reopen files) were licensed (and sometimes in multiple states) and some of the best I have witnessed came from states with no license requirements.
Most of the licensing schools out there are nothing more than "puppy mills" which teach newbies how to pass a state test and teach very little about "adjusting" out here in the real world. Never forget their mission is making money, not creating professional adjusters.
Whatever happened to paying one's dues? |
Edited by - JimF on 01/01/2004 13:40:29 |
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MRichardson1952
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 13:57:35
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| Thank you JimF! Well said! |
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trader
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 18:10:53
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| About 5 years ago a ranking managment person with a very large vendor talked my wife into getting her Adjusters License in our home state, Texas. After spending 1 week in school she passed the test on the first try (without my help) The major event never occurred that prompted her need to be licensed. "Working contents on a good daily rate while I was mucking around in the ashes or debris." |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 21:48:44
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Mark after being a property adjuster for over 25 years I can see why you would not want to viewed as a “Non-Professional” nor should you be. Neither should farmers, software developers nor a host of other vocations so I think it boils down to how one is using the word “Professional”.
There are two reasons for licenses. One is for outsides to control something. The other is because the insiders want to control something. Politicians like licensing things because it is a legal way to take money from a person that would not otherwise surrender it without a fight. Hunting licenses pay for the game warden salaries that enforce the fact that you will buy one. Driver licenses, dog tags, building permits, city stickers, etc are other examples of outsiders trying to control others, not that it is a bad thing to keep order. I think today adjuster licensing may often fall in this category.
Licensing of professionals at the request of the group of professionals is what I am talking about. This is where the insiders choose to be controlled by themselves instead of outsiders because the insiders “screwed-up”. The goal is the insiders can control quality and competition to a degree otherwise not possible. When non-adjusters control when adjusters will work and what education and skills are required or worse the lack thereof as Don mentioned it is hard to view that group as professionals.
I think of when in the old days there were company stores for coalminers and farm tenants. They had no cash or ability to travel to shop where prices and selection were better. Johnny Cash I think sang about “owing one’s soul to the company store”. While I am sure most were professional coalminers yet they were not in control of their futures but was more like slavery in many ways. The chains are monetary in nature not steel.
Often CAT adjusters financial conditions are so they have no choice but to say, “Yes Bossman, Yes Bossman” when the first call comes. This is not the typical position of a true professional. While a certain number of CAT adjusters have some form of retirement funds and are financially independent many are not except for perhaps a working spouse that may have a profession that is protected by a license. Other adjusters have no safety net period and perhaps should not even be in the trade unless they are skilled in staying on assignments.
Don’s statement about being viewed as the ace in a hole is troubling. That being the case then becoming more skilled and professional over time is a liability not an asset. This is counter-productive for all parties in the long run. Trader’s story about his wife makes a good point as well. I am sure she is a talented lady to go to school for one week and become a licensed adjuster with the ability to learn as much money as say Mark with 25 years of experience. Clearly paying one’s dues as Jim mentioned does not apply to adjusting in the mind of the vendors/carriers it seems.
Getting started moving “Adjusting” to have a “Professional” status in a practical and legal sense is not rocket science as R.D. and others have discussed in the past but getting started is the hard part. What to do will become clearer as you move forward.
Someone is going to have to do some lobbying as to how consumers would benefit by adjusters being educated and only permitted to practice their profession after a board of peers approved them to become licensed. Research will have to be done as to how the voters will be the real ones to benefit because only voters (consumers) vote and they are the ones politicians are concerned about. Current adjusters would be grandfathered in but in time they would work out of the system.
Well one could go on and on but I would suggest using the Internet to study how other professions have moved into becoming a truly recognized profession. Actually adjusting is a relative young profession and is still evolving and we are witnessing it trying to come of age and the growing pains associated with it.
When Ben Franklin started the mutual industry in this country everyone knew each other in the mutual and they just worked it out among themselves but today there is a true need for professional adjusters. From my experience I think the carriers could be sold on the fact that a professional, self-regulating pool of adjusters could improve their profit margins if that is the case as you have stated. If you show them(hard data) how their legal fees are higher because of the problems created at the initial intake of a notice of loss, not three years later when it winds up in court they will listen I think.
Nothing develops without stress being behind the development and the desire to relieve that stress is what drives the development. Europeans would have never crossed the Atlantic had they been satisfied with their lot in the Old World. They did not come for gold and riches but to be in control of their own destiny.
This is what I think the adjusters here on CADO are looking for mainly. Some of you have stated you are eating OK but just do not feel you have any real control over your destiny. You have the brainpower needed to get make something positive happen. In the end you may want to get a consultant. First get in your minds how other professions have crossed this mountain.
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katadj
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 23:21:33
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Kudo's Gale, you have condensed all that is right and what is wrong in our midst.
Anyone that has the capacity to lead, should do do, the others may follow or simply get out of the way.
Is there not ONE (1) Among us that has the requisite qualities?
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 23:35:06
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There is a book out there entitled "If You Don't Know Where You're Going, You'll Probably End Up Somewhere Else." **
Where exactly is it you are looking to lead others to go?
** (Author: David Campbell)
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"Pursue Your Values. Accept No Contradictions." |
Edited by - JimF on 01/01/2004 23:45:45 |
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CAT CLAIMS CENTRAL
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