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Admin
547 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2003 : 14:07:01
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Here we go again.
Some of you may notice that some topics have been removed. Here is why.
When the author of the topic removes their post and then one of the posters request that their post also be removed it makes no sense to leave the remaining posts in place so the threads get removed.
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Roy Cupps -
CatAdjuster.org :: Contact\Feedback :: Adjuster Roster :: Current Forum |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2003 : 15:23:10
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| Roy thanks for keeping up the website. Other organizations are interested in a site like CADO but not the work associated with managing a forum but many do "read" CADO. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2003 : 19:44:59
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Roy has advised you one reason why the CADO Moderator removed two topic threads which were posted here on the CADO Forum until this morning.
What Roy did not and could not tell you, was why the original author of those two topic threads removed their initial post and subsequent posts which he also posted to that thread.
I was the author of those two initial posts, and it was my measured although frustrated decision to remove my posts, and I want to share with you why.
As faithful followers, readers and posters here on CADO, I think you are entitled to know those reasons as well.
I posted two topic threads to the CADO Forum: (1) 'Jewelers Block Coverage Question' and (2) 'What is a CAT(astrophe)?'.
Both topics were set up for a serious discussion of serious topics which I felt were timely, and of interest and value to adjusters. Both would be reasonably considered by most prudent people to be of an educational theme.
Very quickly, both topic threads were inundated with inane, silly, bratty, arrogant comments and 'come-backs' which were needlessly disruptive and not in the slightest way germane to the topic at hand under the topical subject.
Most followers and regular readers of this site were aware of the childish nature of these offensive and disruptive posts as well as understand that the guilty party was almost solely limited to one poster who seemed intent to derail these otherwise serious discussions.
For many of us here who regularly initiate and lead topical discussions on educational topics, much work and research goes into putting together these posts and lesson plans of where we want to ultimatlely see the topic develop. Clayton Carr does this and so do I, and a lot more works goes into serving the interests and learning needs of adjusters, than may meet the eye of most.
In my own case, I spend a lot of money to buy and read advanced insurance books, and to regularly travel to and take advanced insurance classes and seminars. Clayton has done and still does much the same.
From questions which are sent to me by email, from seeing new trends developing in the industry, or from just learning something new which I think is worth sharing, I develop ideas for new thread posts, and then try to develop realistic claims scenarios in an attempt to make what might be considered a rather dry subject come alive by appealing to the interests of those adjusters who want to learn.
I don't have all the answers nor do I know it all. To the contrary, that is why I continue to expend vast amounts of time, money and other resources on a regular basis in order to improve my claims knowledge and skills.
Coming from a family where my Mother was a schoolteacher, perhaps it was rightful that I developed early an appetite for reading and learning as well as respect for education and the education process.
Think of CADO as if it were a rather large classroom with many students of varying degrees of background, intelligence and interests. In our public schools, one child may aspire to be a doctor while another wants to be a fireman or plumber. Each is vital for the smooth meshing of society's needs, just as insurance needs some adjusters to handle hail claims and others to adjust airplanes or boats or cars or skyscrapers.
My personal vision for CADO (and Roy has heard me say this over and over and for years and years) has been that CADO one day become THE PREEMINENT ONLINE CLASSROOM for not only cat adjusters, but adjusters of every stripe. And I envisioned a personal role in implementing that vision into a viable workable reality.
That there are others here more experienced and more knowledgeable is unquestionably true. That the task of implementing the shared dream of CADO becoming THE ONLINE INSURANCE UNIVERSITY certainly was going to have required the talents and energies of more than just myself or any two or three of us.
When we think of public education, we first understand that until age 16 in most states, attendance is required by state laws, although I suspect we all more or less agree that there are no laws which can require a child to learn.
But once we matriculate into adulthood, most of us only enroll in schools, classes and seminars because we WANT to learn. No one holds a gun to our heads nor spoon feeds reluctant or disinterested adults to read a book, attend a class or strive for self improvement. Quite simply, participation and learning is a matter of individual choice.
Understanding that as my background and personal philosophy toward higher education and learning to enhance our life as well as lifestyle, it was, is and always will be that those visiting this website who want to learn can, and those who don't are not forced to participate. Again, the choices should be freely made by the individuals.
However, in a civilized society and even within the microcosms of smaller societal units or families such as ours here on CADO, there are and should be 'rules' which protect both those who have no interest in learning as well as those who do. In another age and time, 'gentlemen' exercised certain rules of personal conduct and behavior which would have made more formal rules unnecessary. But that was prior to the advent of such an informal, and in a sense anonymous media as the Internet.
In the end, after numerous requests were made within the two CADO 'classrooms' which I created, for the disruptive and generally offensive party, to cease and desist with the snide remarks, mealy-mouthed 'come-backs, and posts not germane to the thread, I finally posted a request to the CADO Moderator asking that those disruptive and non germane posts be removed.
When after doing that, response was not forthcoming from the Moderators, and the offensive guilty party then reposted even more offensive disruptive posts, I finally threw up my hands and conceded that this party had won, and you and I had lost.
I then removed not only my initial post, but all other posts which I had made. I take personal responsibility for those acts, and were the same circumstances present again, I would not hesitate to repeat those actions. Those actions on my part were not done lightly nor were they done in anger. They were done finally out of frustration of the highest magnitude, when every other avenue to correct the disruption had failed in stopping the disrupter.
The failure of CADO to monitor posts and enforce guidelines relating to removal of posts which are disruptive, offensive and not germane to the two topics at hand, did nothing to check behaviors which might have ceased had there been earlier intervention by CADO staff and administration.
I remain hopeful that one day an online insurance university will materialize out here somewhere on the Internet, but without the wholehearted support of such a website administration, and the proper rules and guidelines and their enforcement to prevent offensive, off-topic, and disruptive interruption, such a dream shall continue to elude us each and every one at the expense of our professional image and personal self actualization.
And when a minority of one can deny the rest of us the opportunity to learn by creating havoc and disruption in educational access, then it is time for a change. I don't have an answer other than to say that many others feel the same frustrations and lack of policing that I do and have for the past several days.
I am sorry this has been so lengthy, and if it reads somewhat pedantic, I apologize, yet take personal responsibility for that weakness.
And for those who share my appetite for continuing education and discussions of advanced topics in insurance, I hope that we can one day learn together without the disruption and intervention of those who warmly embrace ignorance as their friend.
Finally, it was only after the disrupting party was told that a letter was being sent to his employer complaining of his offensive words and egregious behavior, did he take notice and request that the two threads be removed.
I do not ask for your approval nor your understanding of my decisions and actions.
Perhaps a stronger and more patient man or woman would have acted differently, and I respect if not envy that.
But I did ask for your ear, that you might hear the rest of the story, and now you know.
My best wishes to all in their ongoing personal pursuit of knowledge and self improvement.
It is a journey worth exploring and taking.
It is only by lighting the candles within the human mind that mankind can ever hope to escape the darkness of ignorance and despair. |
Edited by - JimF on 02/02/2003 22:02:43 |
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Admin
547 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2003 : 22:54:36
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| I do not see any problems with the moderation of the site. While we try we simply cannot review ever post that made and this stated in the user agreement several times. It is also stated in the user agreement that if any visitor has any problems with comments that are posted then they should email me directly. I never received an email from anyone about any of the posts in the topics that were removed. Linda as a moderator is helping me on a voluntary bases and receives no income for her efforts. I'm very thankful for the help she provides. If our policy has offended you then please do not put blame on anyone but me. |
Roy Cupps -
CatAdjuster.org :: Contact\Feedback :: Adjuster Roster :: Current Forum |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 07:41:46
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As an author of a new thread, any poster here becomes the 'Teacher' within that thread 'Classroom.'
When an unruly 'Student' starts or continues to engage in bratty, disruptive, and/or offensive behavior through their disruptive posts, the 'Teacher' here on CADO is powerless to 'discipline' the bratty child (by removing the brat posts).
When the 'Teacher' repeatedly posts requests to the 'School Principal' to discipline the bratty child, and such discipline is not forthcoming, then the 'Teacher', the rest of the students in the classroom, and the 'Brat Child' soon come to understand that an UNRULY CHILD IS IN CONTROL OF THE EDUCATIONAL PROCESS.
Roy, I did in fact send a letter of complaint on January 31 to the CADO Moderator (copy of which I am forwarding to you by email) and received a response back on February 1 which included this excerpt:
He is taking a real risk, professionally, posting and I do ask that you give him some latitude until he gets his feet on the ground. Yes, we could criticize him but considering the number of adjusters who are not IAs who post at all, I think the right thing to do is let it run its course with as little said as possible.
I am and was aware, that Clayton Carr, as well, complained to both you and Linda via email, about the unruly disruptiions, through his sharing that email to you two, with me.
I felt that that email of complaint, as well as 4 (Four) separate requests to CADO Moderators within the two threads to CADO (in BOLD) were sufficient in providing notice to the appropriate enforcement under the CADO Visitor's Guidelines and Users Agreement.
When the author of the post here has no power to remove disruptive posts, and the Moderators/Administration Can't or Won't, then unruly parties soon learn THEY ARE IN CHARGE.
And with that comes the disruptive unruly havoc we have seen in recent days. And with that havoc, more and more former excellent posters leaving in disgust and/or frustration.
And when that happens: Ignorance prevails and enlightenment loses.
And with that, the greater majority of interested students and teachers can only conclude and say to themself and others: so much for education in the CADO 'classroom'.
These threads were derailed not by the passengers on the train, but because the engineers fell asleep at the wheel or else no one was in the cab.
I do not share these thoughts as criticism of you and Linda, who's tasks and efforts I applaud.
I share with the constructive hope that they will highlight the need for changes which protect you, CADO, readers, authors and posters from a repeat of such a trying and disruptive experience. |
Edited by - JimF on 02/03/2003 08:18:05 |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 08:15:47
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| Although I am not in favor of censorship, in any forum there is a moment when action is needed, what I am seeing is not just differing opinions but deliberate disruption. Jim this time agree with you. |
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Admin
547 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 08:36:01
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| Since it is not possible for us to review all of the post all of the time, one solution would be the moderation of all replies. This means all replies would not be visiable until it had been reviewed. This would cause delays and we have tried this in the past and received complaints of censorship. |
Roy Cupps -
CatAdjuster.org :: Contact\Feedback :: Adjuster Roster :: Current Forum |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 08:43:21
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Roy, might I suggest you consider adding additional Moderators.
Had Tom Toll, Clayton Carr or Don Elkington been among your Moderators with moderator power and control to remove off-topic and/or disruptive posts, knowing those gentlemen, the recent situation just never would have happened nor blossomed into what it did.
Removing non-germane disruptive posts and enforcing the CADO Users Agreement is not the same thing as censorship, which we all abhor.
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Edited by - JimF on 02/03/2003 08:56:35 |
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Admin
547 Posts |
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mshort68
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 09:38:14
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| As a new AI, I hope not to have this much time on my hands as to write of thesis on how and how not to act. If you want censorship go to China. Not being bratty or ignorant, just my opinion or can you have one on this sight? |
The grass is always greener on the other side, but it still has to be mowed! |
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Jeanette
25 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 10:04:30
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| My two cents worth... Can't all the "adults" just ignore or overlook any "bratty" expressions and proceed with their plan? If we are not oversensitive to barbs and bait it will not really affect the thread much. If we "defend" ourselves and have to "prove" who's the real man of the thread, this type of problem will recur. One person cannot stir up too much trouble by himself/herself. The problems encountered in those threads was not the fault of one guilty party but of several participants, IMHO. I concur with Tom Toll: Grow up! (Of course, this is directed at all of us--we can become childish in any of our relationships) BUT Don't lose your sense of humor :) |
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mshort68
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 10:13:37
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| I agree with you Jeanette. I enjoy the discussions and insight from other adjusters, but if you get in a cat fight and get whipped don't come back crying. It takes more than one to have a fight. Great sight and I enjoy open discussions with all sides giving input. |
The grass is always greener on the other side, but it still has to be mowed! |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 10:35:25
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As a person who is training to be an adjuster, I gain most of my insights into this proffession through CADO.
From my initiation and rocky start I have learnded a valuable lesson in the makeup of personalities of this site, all without the bashing of individuals or companies. I hope I have not offended anyone and if I did, I appoligise.
I hope I never claimed to be anything I am not or even gave that impression. This is a Brotherhood of Proffessionals or those that want to be.
I have only two purposes in comming here, one is to learn, the other is bond with co-workers.
This is a place to exchange ideas, stories, information and ask questions about the job or as the "Anything Else Thread" thread says, other intrests.
The monumental task of running this forum needs our help in keeping order, and maintain the high standards we expect. I see no advantage to anyone who attacks another persons character on here.
I suggest anyone with that intention to take time to consider your actions, it would be better to send an email,and not this forum. Never should one try to humiliate another member on a public forum.
Thats a two edge sword and when you do it, it contributes to your degradation also.
I come here to learn and socialize, and much like Tom Toll, I don't like strife and choose not to participate. We can still have fun and be civil. I love humor, and sometimes clown around, but not at the expense of others.
So I ask that each one consider why we are here and if is not for friendship and learning, then I hope you find you nich on some other site or have a change in attitude.
I would love to get back to my studies and learning, thats what its all about for me. I had rather do it with friends. |
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Tom Toll
USA
154 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 10:59:11
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| I agree with Jeanette. People with lacking intelligence seem to admire themselves and remarks or rebuttal on their posts. This is simple, don't respond to them, I don't, because it is a total waste of emotion. |
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ckleisch
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 11:38:11
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I have read the various comments posted and I too agree you did the right thing in removing the posts and threads. I usually come to the CADO site read and learn and say very little if anything. I have learned a lot and actually see things from a different perspective on issues. I hope your energies in the future will continue with the sharing of the expert knowledge you obviously have. The time you spend in coming up with different items for discussion is commendable. I hope to contribute some ideas of my own in the future.
I would leave you with an adage my father taught me. He to was a former Claims adjuster an Manager:
"When dealing with people sometimes it is best to not get into a battle of whits with an unarmed person." Always, tryed to live by that axiom worked well so far. Thank you for your professional site. |
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awes10
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 12:10:14
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I like censorship. It keeps things civil.
Those typically that scream against it are usually vile, violant and/or ignorant.
It is impossible to have constructive discussion with folks such as these.
What a waste of time to have to filter through garbage.
From experience - it is not wise nor frugal to punish the whole lot for the actions of one or a few.
Revoke their disruptive behavior.
That would be the majority consensus.
Perhaps that would be a poll in which everyone concerned with CADO would participate.
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Topic Removal
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