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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
 Posted - 03/17/2003 : 21:54:11
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Now which General wanted to go to Bagdad during the last Gulf War and which 'child' was it that stopped him and said NO?
Seems to me that Cheney fellow was one of that President's war advisors too, as well as his Secretary of Defense. Amazing how brillant he has now become in just 12 short years. Does this mean that Cheney was wrong then or wrong now? Because in reality, in both cases, he walked lockstep with his President, yet now his views differ?
If that President had done the job right then, all of this would be a moot point now.
And I, as well as hundreds of millions of other adults and children, in America and around the world, believe that to be the driving force behind this President's will and lust for war. And in politics, perceptions become reality. |
Edited by - JimF on 03/17/2003 22:00:58 |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:01:06
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Kile, I sincerely and very respectfully request you do some extensive research into the causes, actions, reactions and effects resulting from the egomanical personalities in charge of the federal government during the 1950's and 1960's.
Vietnam was a war of national reconcilation between the north and the south. It was interference by various foriegn governments that prolonged and intensified the horrendous struggle.
At this time, I want to go record by stating that supporting the troops is entirely different from supporting the government. Patriotism is roughly defined has 'love of ones country'. Note that this does not necessarily mean 'love of ones government'.
As one who has a medal for heroism in the back of my sock drawer from the U.S. Army for leading a charge with only a flimsy and dinky bayonet on the end of a jammed rifle because the government issued it with no cleaning kit because it would never need cleaning and R&D saved $1.25 by not chroming the bore and chamber, I learned my lesson well about trusting any government. I believe it is a very good idea to rigidly define ones loyalties. Kile, you can share my canteen but that Rush Limbaugh ought to be fragged.
There have been too many instances where the poor ol' grunt has had to pull the state departments fat out of the fire. This current fiasco is yet one more. And one last thing, I and the rest of the world are fed up with the hypocrisy of the U.S. being a peace loving people. In fact, we are coldly efficient at the Art of War and very proud of it! Patton was right, we love to fight and can't stand to lose. It is high time we either accepted this basic truth or retreated to isolationism and lived up to the lie we have told for the past century.
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:10:44
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I have read many reasons why we pulled up short in '91. Some of them are pretty far fetched, but the best one that I've seen is that GHW Bush thought that the Republican Guard was sufficiently hobbled and with the northern and southern no fly zones in place Bush Sr. and others believed that the Kurds and the Sunnis and the Shiites would rise up and oust Sadam. An organic regime change is of course preferable by far.
Unfortunately that isn't what happened. The Republican Guard was not sufficiently weakened and Sadam was able to stay in power. It was a gamble. It was a major miscalculation.
I hope you don't think that GW is simply doing this to avenge his father. While great books have been written with similar plots, I don't think for a second that this is the case here.
Had 9/11/01 never happened, I don't think we would be here today. I think we were all living in the dark about how certain groups of people in this world feel about us. We didn't have a clue that anyone could actually hate us that much. After all, we don't hate them.
We see the world in a different light now. There are people out there who want us dead. They hate our culture and everything we stand for. They live in the shadows and use our own freedoms as weapons against us. These people will stop at nothing to do us harm. We must do anything and everything to cut off their sources of weapons and funding. That is why Sadam must be eliminated, the same way the Taliban had to be eliminated.
There are, I'm sure, some good arguments against war, Jim, you have stated several of them. But I think the dangers of doing nothing outweigh the risks of ousting Sadam by force. Maybe the Iraqi people aren't ready for democracy, but I at least think they should be given that chance. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:17:59
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Kile, with your newfound desire to impose or provide opportunties for American democracy, then don't you think it would be a good idea to invade Iran and North Korea and Lebanon and Libya and Somalia and..................?
The point that escapes none of our world partners is this first time foray by an American President in attacking a nation which has not attacked us. It is called American Imperialism and Expansionism in other parts of the world, and it is part and parcel of why so many other nations and peoples hate America and perceive us as 'ugly Americans.'
This war is not going to make our world's image better but worse, with repercussions of unfathomable consequence for generations to come. Starting within the year with the British removing America's friend, Tony Blair from office and severely strained relationships with our European and NATO partners. |
Edited by - JimF on 03/17/2003 22:22:48 |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:20:34
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Ghost, you can blame McNamara for that pathetic M16-A1 with the non-chromed chamber. He had a good point when he asked why all 4 services had a different style of dress shoe. He should have left it to the people in the field when it came to designing weapons and equipment. You can't apply the same logic to guns as you do to dress shoes.
I didn't mean to open up another can of worms with my Vietnam comment, sorry I brought it up. I think it was the right reason to fight but it was fought the wrong way. Too many good young men were fed into that meat grinder with no intention of ever letting them do what they needed to do.
I also agree that we are a feisty bunch. I love Patton, he was crazy, but he was a man who had found his true calling in life. I wish we could all be as lucky as he was. I think you are right when you say we are not a peace loving people, but I don't think we go out looking for a fight either. If the fight presents itself, we won't try to run away or talk our way out of it.
Oh, and Vietnam is another case of us bailing out France. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:25:07
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| The French left Vietnam on their own in 1954. We did not get involved until many years later. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:26:07
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| We attacked Germany, they never attacked us. We attacked Iraq in the fist gulf war (the one that this is simply a continuation of) and they never attacked us. We invaded Grenada, they never attacked us. We invaded Panama, they never attacked us. We invaded Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, launched cruise missiles against a Sudanese aspirin factory. It seems there is a pattern here. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:36:43
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| The first US military advisors arrived in French Indo China in 1950 and were abandoned in 1954 by the French. |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:42:08
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| Jim there is a real question mark in my mind as there will be a desire by the locals to get caught up in running to the polls instead of fighting to settle old scores. One small ray of hope are those from Iraq that have been living in this country for the past 12 years that will be returning. After having tasted freedom and the ones that have lived for 30 years without freedom get back together maybe there will be a desire to stand tall for freedom. I have read we will be there 10 years as well. Regardless I do not see world peace coming because of this war at hand. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 22:59:57
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Gale, I hope what you say is true, but let's remember that prior to the fall of the Sha of Iran, the Iranians were the most western of all the middle eastern countries. They had discos, women walking around in miniskirts and wearing makeup. They watched western TV and listened to Western music, now 25 years after the fall of the Sha they are still living in a muslim fundementalist theocracy. How do we explain that.
Here is an interesting observation I have made. It is both linguistic and cultural. When Bush said to Iraq, "the game is over", I think all Americans understood this to mean that we are tired of Sadam playing games with the inspectors and the UN and the time has come for us to stop him from doing it.
The French quickly seized on Bush's words and condemned them saying in their most Gaulic "This is war we are talking about, it's not a game."
The same thing happened when Bush said it's time for everyone to lay their cards on the table. Once again the French balked (sports analogy) at this saying war is not a game of poker.
We as Americans speak in a constant stream of sports analogies, and our sports are full of war analogies. Sports have always been a way to keep our war skills honed. Being a sports obsessed culture it isn't unusual that our leader would use such verbage. We all understand it. I guess if he had said "The time has come to eat the cheese" the French would have understood.
If you think about it, all the good sports have come from either the US or Brittain. I guess you could include Canada in that because of hockey, but then again, if you combine the US and Brittain you get Canada anyway. Could France's propensity to surrender stem from the fact that they have no tradition of team sports? I know this is a little flippant, but I thought it may lighten the mood a little.
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Justin
USA
137 Posts |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 23:34:54
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| Kile you do make a good point about Iran. On a stranger note if the terrorist cells do reveal themselves in the next few days around the world it could really effectively take them out of the game. Woops, I mean war. It is the unknown that is weighing so heavy on everyone’s mind. I am going to be on the road this week into AL so since it was a toss up between flying and driving time and cost wise I am driving due to increased airport security. Of course there is more risk of an accident. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 23:36:28
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Jim, your 3/17 post @ 22.17, contains some chilling points in your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
The 3rd paragraph especially, I fear, is a very real prognosis.
Kile, I don't think you'll find much organized ice hockey being played in Britain; nor will you find much cricket played here. And, I might add, Canada got its 'divorce' from the motherland, quite a few years ago. Oh, I also meant to tell you the other day, when you mentioned Canada in relation to sports, that the former home of the 'inventor' of basketball; is now a museum up near Ottawa. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 23:44:38
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| I simply meant that if you want a good approximation of Canada just immagine if the US and Brittain had a child. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2003 : 00:16:50
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Well, it's getting too late to debate that statement Kile. However, for simplicity, I'll stick with a 'father' that likes his beer cold, or if 'he' felt a need for a whiskey; 'he' would at least put ice in it - those things don't happen across the pond. Or, if 'he' took a notion to use cream, 'he' would put it in 'his' coffee; and not pour it over apple pie.
I suppose I can come to terms with the "child" analogy, if I consider the respective age of our countries; in that regard I could even call 'Uncle Sam' grampa. |
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Iraq
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