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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
 Posted - 03/27/2003 : 19:04:55
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Gale you make the following statement: ...we do not understand freedom because we have not known the lack of freedom.
Just as a didactic exercise, let's slightly change your statement by substituting another word for 'freedom' to see whether your statement stands as logically and rhetorically correct;
What if one said: we do not understand poverty because we have not known the lack of poverty
or,
we do not understand illness because we have not known the lack of illness
Wouldn't your 'freedom statement' be the logical equivalent of one Iraqi citizen saying to another Iraqi citizen: we do not understand tyranny because we have not known the lack of tyranny?
Do any of those four statements make any logical sense to you?
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Edited by - JimF on 03/27/2003 19:21:27 |
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tomgriffin56
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 19:38:14
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| How about "We do not properly cherish freedom because we have not known tyranny?" |
Edited by - tomgriffin56 on 03/27/2003 19:39:47 |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 19:40:11
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Jim, the problem is you are comparing the lack of a positive thing, freedom, to the lack of negative things, poverty, illness, tyranny.
Plus, none of the statements you've made make any sense because we've never been withouth poverty, illness or tyranny. We know what all of these things are. We've seen their affects and we know we don't like them.
I think a better and more direct example would be to say something like, "In this country we don't understand the lack of clean, drinkable water because we've allways had clean water to drink."
Now, that sentence makes sense, just as Gales original statement makes sense.
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 19:48:01
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Tom, suppose an Iraqi said: we do not understand freedom because we have ONLY known tyranny. (Such statement being logical)
How can an individual 'know' a position or state (of being) unless the individual has experienced or 'known' it?
Please help me to understand. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 19:52:26
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| Kile, the statement we do not understand the LACK of freedom because we have not known the lack of freedom would be a logical statement. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 19:54:13
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Jim, I think that statement makes perfect sense. If someone who grew up in a totalitarian regime is suddenly thrust into a free and open society, I really don't think they will fully understand it, not at first.
I think they will quickly learn to understand it, and probably appreciate it a great deal more than people who have grown up in freedom. I think a great example of this is the eagerness for the former Soviet bloc countries to support the US in the war on Iraq. These people had the Jackboot of communism removed from their necks less than a generation ago so they remember what it was like to live that way and they wish for others to have the freedom that they now enjoy. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:03:57
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No, Jim, I don't think you are getting the point. I think alot of people truly don't understand the importance of freedom because they take it for granted, they have never lived without it. I'm sure if they were ever forced to live without it they would quickly understand.
I remember when I was going through basic training, the lack of freedom was a shock and I wrote in a letter to my dad that I thought it was ironic that the people who are willing to volunteer to put their lives on the line for the freedom of their countrymen actually enjoy less freedom than those who's freedom they protect. When my dad responded to that letter he commented on how profound that observation was and to never forget it.
I had never known the lack of true freedom. The freedom to eat when I wanted to, sleep when I wanted to, watch TV, read a book or talk to the person next to me during dinner. It was the lack of these things that made me trully understand what freedom is and it made me that much more eager to do whatever I could to defend freedom because I recognized how imortant it is.
Had I never surrendered my freedom, even for just a few months, I never would have truly appreciated it. Therefore, I still believe Gale's statement to be correct.
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:08:59
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Kile, here's an article which discusses how the use of words can change how we see things as logical or illogical.
It is our experiential evidence which clouds the way we look at things, such that one individual having one set of experiences will not share the same values as another individual in seeing the exact same set of empirical evidence.
Entitled Orwellian Logic 101 -- A Few Simple Lessons, the article can be read at the website enclosed as follows:
http://www.fair.org/media-beat/980827.html |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:18:26
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I guess if you believe in moral relativism then that article makes sense to you. But when a sick person talks a 16 year old girl to walk into a pizza parlor and kill innocent civilians it is not the same as the government ordering their military to attack the people who talked that girl into doing it. It is called good vs. evil and it does exist. Moral relativism is just a way that the left tries to make evil seem the same as good.
If you go with that logic then we are as bad as Hitler because he invaded France, then we invaded France. We both did the same thing, why is one right and the other wrong? |
Edited by - KileAnderson on 03/27/2003 20:20:11 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:25:13
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Do you not recall Kile your history lesson that the French invited our occupation to expel the unwanted invasion by Hitler?
The article I posted has nothing whatsoever to do with moral relativism, it has everything to do with using words to suit a nation's need in masking hypocrisy. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:37:13
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OK, Jim, did the Germans ask us to invade Germany? We did that too, was that wrong?
I read that article three times. It is totally about moral relativism. And it is totally wrong. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:37:21
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Kile, I hope I am not interpreting your comments, ".... someone .... is suddenly thrust into a free an open society ....", to be at all suggestive of the future of the Iraq populace.
These people are years, if not a generation away from "freedom". The so called "liberation" of the people, is not going to set them free.
The post-Sadaam initial period, will be one of military occupation (hardly "freedom"), while resistence to that festers and grows, and while the many factions within the country pick and pull for their own turf; the results of all of which will be worse than we are currently witnessing.
When I was a young man watching the Vietnam war on TV, I do recall that there was strong initial public support for it, and that support stayed positive for three years; before it turned to a majority of negative support. Communication technology today, does not allow an Administration to control the news bites and spins, for any length of time. As the above unfolds, the public's taste for it will turn much quicker than it did some 30 years ago.
Gale is right, we have absolutely no concept of freedom. Getting rid of Sadaam will not create freedom for the people within the concept of our understanding of it. |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:45:35
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Clayton,
No, I meant only what I said and nothing more. I was just using that as an example and I agree with you that even if Saddam was killed tomorrow and the Republican Guard layed down their arms and the people of Baghdad welcomed us with open arms and all the gyros we can eat, they are still decades away from freedom, but they are a millenium closer to it than they were under Saddam. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2003 : 20:46:41
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Gale,
I saw that guy interviewed on TV a couple of days ago. It's a powerful story. |
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Iraq
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