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jlombardo
USA
212 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2003 : 05:49:03
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Chuck,
You go right ahead and stick to your beliefs.......whether the majority here feel you are right or wrong....you have the right to your beliefs and the right to opennly express those beliefs,both in public and in private.......but never , ever forget to acknowledge and remember in your personal conversations with the deity that you prescribe to and believe in , that those rights have been protected by the folks that have laid their lives on the line to protect those rights......do I agree with your position....NO......but it is your right to speak it openly.
A lot of folks have died to protect that right...and all the other freedoms as written in the Constitution and Bill of Rights of these United States...........Oh and Chuck,those of us who swore to "protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States" and are still around would greatly appreciate a few kind words to your deity.... |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 07:15:30
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If the purpose of this war was to enslave it would be murder, and I doubt the men over there would go along with it. How ever this is to liberate those people from oppresion. When the battle starts Sadam will have to worry about his safety from his own people. Right now they have to say what the dictator wants said, they're affraid to do otherwise. I have a friend from Iraq that keeps me posted, his son was born here and is over there in the Air Force. He still has contacts and thats why I have confidence in the mission.
I agree with Joe we need different views and the freedom to express or we would be no better off than they are. Opposing Saddam, would get you shot in front of your family in Iraq or even maybe your kids.
Its an unpleasant task, war always is and I am not willing to wait around till we feel his wrath. Once it starts, it will be more of a civil war than ours, thats the most uncivilized kind and many inocents will be hurt. The elite guard are better equipt than the average Iraqi and though they may kill hundreds of civilians, they will feel their wrath. Thats my oppinion and I pray that NO people will come to harm. We will be the shock that gets them started. |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 08:10:44
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| When we stop asking why are we going to put young men in harms way, why are we going to kill innocent people (it happens in war no matter how carefull we are), why there will be more children with out fathers, why?, then we as a people are in trouble. It doesn't mean we don't go and do what has to be done. If you can see past the rhetoric, Chuck raises good points. We rant and rave at those who are slow to join us. But we forget how long it was before we got around to helping out against Hitler (I do know about the aircraft parked by the Canadian border so they could be pulled across at night etc). And we even compare Sadam to Hilter. (He is more like Stalin). Let's look past our egos and ask our selves are we part of the world or do we think we are the world? We will fight Sadam and we will win, although the cost will be to high (the first dead son is to high). We have to at some point get behind our leaders and trust them. BUT at the end of the day, we should expect the they prove they were right to spend the encomony into the ground. We should expect some real proof that Sadam is supporting Bin Ladan and we should see these WDM. But please do not expect all of us to jump up and down in exitement yelling "kill kill kill". |
Edited by - olderthendirt on 03/05/2003 08:13:15 |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 08:46:22
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Newt, there is quite a contradiction in your opening two sentences. Aside from that, you have now said that the 'cause' of this soon to be conflict, "is to liberate those people from oppression". Where does any country get the moral right to invade another country, because they want to liberate foreigners from oppression?
This is another example of the 'cause' of this conflict, being touted for unjust reasons.
I see the contradiction I noted above, as being when one country imposes itself on another under the guise of liberation, knowing full well it will have to occupy that land for years, and hence 'ensalve the liberated people'; before the country imposing the liberation is satisfied unto themselves only, that a leader and a philosophy is in place in that liberated land, to the imposing countries liking. |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 09:24:43
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I am not talking about individuals committing murder. Even though every war has its murderers. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/myl_bcalleyhtml.htm War was war until the end of WWII, basically fought with sticks and knives. Throughout history adversaries were fairly well matched, occasionally one side or the other gained an advantage, St. Elmo’s fire, body armor, the long bow, the crossbow, guns, machine guns, airplanes, radar, rockets, then the United States used nuclear weapons.
Generally speaking WWI and WWII did not constitute murder i.e. slaughter, massacre, as both sides were about equally matched. Then the United States dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. Dropping nuclear bombs on Japanese cities clearly constituted murder, murder on a grand scale. The bombs that fell from the Enola Gay http://www.theenolagay.com/ constituted mass slaughter on a previously unknown scale.
As for fathers and grandfathers being murders just because they served, drafted most likely, in WWI and WWII is impossible to say. Certainly there were murders committed.
This business with Iraq or for that matter with any other current political entity is such an uneven match that any direct contract is completely unnecessary.
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 11:03:31
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Let me get this straight. Since we have invested money in weapons systems and since we have the best trained and equiped army on the planet it is just unsporting for us to do what's right? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, Chuck.
Newt is right that the Iraqis will be liberated by this war. But that isn't why we are doing it. We are doing it for the security and safety of our country and the world. Perhaps it is because of my Army service or maybe it is because I used to sell electronic security equipment, or maybe it's both, but to me without security you have nothing. If I don't know I'm safe I have a hard time enjoying my life. That is why we must take out Saddam and we will probably have to do something about N. Korea and then Iran. Until we eliminate Saddam there is a good likelyhood that he will give the nasty stuff he has to people who will use it against us.
As I write this, I am watching video of yet another bus bombing in Isreal. At least 15 innocent people, including children were killed. That will start happening to us if we don't do everything we can to eliminate the threat. Don't think for a minute that all of this isn't connected. Like it or not we have been dragged into a religious/cultural war. We are fighting a war against people who would prefer that we all live in the stone age. Ironically enough, these same people who want to impose these strict religious sanctions on they're own people and force us to live the same way, have enjoyed the very lifestyle they profess to hate. Like most religious zealots, they have a double standard, one way of life for themselves and another way of life for their brainwashed subjects (Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and Tammy Baker come to mind).
Chuck, a couple of hundred thousand people died when the Enola Gay let the Genie out of the bottle. That is a tragic and sad loss. But lets not forget, millions of Americans and Japanese would have died, including Captain Charles Lillie, my grandfather. He was a company commander for the force that was training to invade Japan. The Japanese would have fought to the death in the streets before surrendering. Just as they did in the Islands. The Japanese had told so many horrible stories about Americans that when we took Okinawa and Pelilu, many of the local civilian women threw their babies off of cliffs and jumped after them rather than being taken by the Americans who they thought would torture them then eat them.
You may think that dropping those bombs was murder. But if you educate yourself about what the circumstances really were you'd realize that by dropping those bombs, Truman actually saved hundreds of thousands of lives. I don't think anyone envies Truman's position. He had to make the hardest decision any president has ever had to make. Lest we also not forget that we didn't bomb Pearl Harbor. The Japanese brought this upon themselves. I believe it was Yamamoto who said, "we have awakened a sleeping giant". He knew he had poked a stick into the biggest, baddest hornets nest on the planet and sure enough, he, and his country paid a massive price for doing it.
Between Dec. 7, 1941 and Sept. 11, 2001 we lived in ignorant bliss. Feeling safe right here in our homeland. On 9/11/01 we learned that we are not safe. We are vulnerable right here in our homes and offices. Until the sponsors of terrorism around the world are eliminated we will remain that way. |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 18:17:12
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Ifs and buts were candy and nuts it would be Christmas all year round.
Is murder any less murder because it is easy? That is exactly my point. What wrong are we righting by killing Joe Iraqi? What danger are we eliminating by killing Jane Iraqi?
What does a suicide bomber in Israel have to do with intellegent, well armed, United States citizens killing the ignorant, poorly armed, citizens of Iraq and their childern.
Seems to me that as insecure, religious zealots we have a double standard.
The fact remains that Truman did not "save" the lives of the innocent, Jane Japanese who who was slaughtered, vaporized by a force previously unknown.
Forces previously unknown are about to be visited on Iraq and the murder to be committed will be no less than the murder committed.
It is hard for me to beleive that anyone thinks that they are "safe" and I can say that I don't live in "ignorant bliss." I can say that I have walked, hitch hiked and rode the bus thoughout this country and it ain't a safe place. Once again as Doc Phil says, "Life is a contact sport" and you don't have any choice whether you play.
Murder remains murder no matter how it is justified.
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 18:37:54
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Ok, Chuck, you, obviously do not see reality in any way shape or form. Many, many more Japanese people would have died if Truman hadn't dropped the bomb, along with a whole bunch more of our boys. I guarantee, if the choice is a bunch of dead them or a bunch of dead us and them. I'm going to pick a bunch of dead them any day.
But that is a totally different situation. We are not going to go in and kill thousands of innocent civilians. The US millitary does more than any force the world has ever known to avoid civilian casualties. I know, I trained with many of the people who are going into Iraq right now. The US army does things that put it's soldiers at greater risk in order to avoid civilian casualties. The US is the only country I can think of that rebuilds the countries we go to war with. Germany and Japan are stronger now than they were before they started wars with us. I guarantee you that Iraq will be the same.
You want to know what a suicide bomber in Isreal has to do with us invading Iraq. Well, let me see. If you go into the Mosques in the middle east they will tell you how the US and Isreal are the Great Satan. They will tell you how Jews use the blood of Arab children to make their bread for passover. They will tell you how the US is helping Isreal kill Arabs. They will tell you how evil the west is. You see, to Arabs the US and Isreal are the same. Right now they are blowing up busses and pizza parlors in Isreal, but soon, if we don't destroy this virulent strain of Islam soon busses in the US will start to explode. There will be anthrax at the shopping mall. Dirty bombs will go off in Manhattan and Los Angeles. If you think the economy is bad now, wait until wall street is contaminated with radiation and unlivable for 1000 years.
Yes, Chuck, lif is a contact sport and on Sept. 11, the Islamic extremists kicked off what will be the most violent century the planet has ever known, unless we do something to stop them. |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 20:21:41
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| So this is really a Religious war, the American Crusade. And amazingly we are starting by attacking the one Arab leader is isn't religious. Oil and liberating the Iraqis are just fringe benefits. I am no longer confused. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 20:24:33
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| It's their religious war. We are in a strugle for freedom and safety. |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 23:46:26
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I didn't intend my statement to be a contradiction in terms< I meant what I said, KIle expanded , which I should have done, this is for security reasons. We have never enslaved anyone after a war, in fact we fed and rebuilt. The holy war was not declaired by us they have vowed to kill us
The purpose of the Islamic Jihad is to destroy the men, women and children of christians and Jews.
Any one who doesn't believe this needs to put the other oar in the water. As long as the diaper heads in these training camps train to attack us we are at risk. The only thing the PLO and Hasballah is not included and should be. They just blew up another school bus today, killing several kids.
The UN are sitting on their hands, and justify this dastardly deed. I never had much faith in the UN because these third world countries sell their vote to the highest bidder. Meanwhile all the money is going to fund these little dictators peronal fortunes and helps keep them in power.
The intent of this battle plan is to cause as little collateral damage as possible, but war is hell and some may occur there is no such thing as a mercifull war. The bridges, dams and civilian will not be targets, The Iraqi Military will use civilians as shields, that is murder.
The protesters (human shields) found out the Iraqi Government want them to shield the military and many are having second thoughts, some have returned. That bunch better have their ducks in a row because they have more to fear from their own people. Be offended by this post if you wish, but we will defend this country. It may start tomorrow. Then again we may just continue bluffing until they do the deed on their own. If that happens you will see murder and brutality their style. |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 07:03:45
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Now we have gone from murder is murder to justifying murder. "Many, many more Japanese people would have died if Truman hadn't dropped the bomb, along with a whole bunch more of our boys. I guarantee, if the choice is a bunch of dead them or a bunch of dead us and them. I'm going to pick a bunch of dead them any day." Jane Japanese and her kids, Peter & Louise Japanese, still got vaporized on the way to the local noodle shop, along with the noodle shop. Is it alright to murder them if it is to keep them from murdering us?
Whose freedom and whose safety?
Oh! and I don't intend to go into any mosques in the Middle East, I will have to rely on others for that, East Little Rock is dangerous enough for me.
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 07:12:03
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Newt, your level of tolerance for other cultures and societies, is well noted throughout this thread.
It again surfaces with your prejudical and demeaning use of the term "diaper heads".
There are many thousands of people living freely in North America, whose ethnic background and culture requires them to wear a headdress.
We can poke fun at each others overalls or ball cap, footwear or belt buckles; but I think your statement above is quite insensitive and inappropriate. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 08:32:39
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Yes, Chuck. It is perfectly alright kill someone to keep them from killing you. Now you're catching on.
The answer to your second question: Our freedom and our safety, not to mention the safety of the rest of the free world. Pay attention please.
Oh and if you kill someone in self defense it isn't murder. As I have stated before, the "unlawful" killing of a human being, with intent to do so, is murder.
If a man was breaking into your house to rape and kill your wife and you shot him as he walked down the hall carrying a shot gun, would you then be a murderer?
(In case you don't know the answer, It is no, you wouldn't be a murderer, you'd be a man) |
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CatDaddy
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 09:46:18
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If you're in my house, walking down the hall carrying just a spoon, you're toast!
Its clear that some of you do not realize what kind of enemy we as fighting here. These are people who will walk into your church on Easter Sunday with a bomb around their waist, look towards their motherland and press the button. You can't play nice with them. They have no sense of diplomacy. They do not care about US beliefs or our way of life. There is no "can't we all just get along". We are the Devil to them and they mean to rid the world of us.
It sounds pretty obvious what needs to be done. Get them before they get us. I know that sounds harsh to some but these people are like fire ants. They will keep coming if we dont do something. If we back off, they will still come. Its their duty.
Iraq supports terrorism. Roast'm!
God bless our troops! Good luck! |
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Iraq
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