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Last Post 03/31/2010 6:08 PM by  jedevich
Steep Roofs
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okclarryd
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08/06/2009 11:00 PM
He could also try spell check...........but that might be a stretch.

I just wish I knew what he is so mad about.
Larry D Hardin
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JimGary
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08/07/2009 8:58 AM
I have a R/H certificate from US Staffing. I was going to go through KSquared's course but US Staffing was closer. I have heard some criticism in the field about KSquared's course and I have some criticism about US Staffing. It would be nice if a training course, whether it be a R/H, roof measurement, or damage assessment, could have 5-10 real homes to climb on, but that is unrealistic. Bottom line, I am safer today for taking the course. I have the correct equipment, and know how to use it. I'm not sure what all the bickering is about, US Staffing vs KSquared, certificate vs certification. We have all chosen a carrier in which we leave our home and families for extended periods. Climb roofs that would scare a mountain goat. Crawl into the front seat of flooded varmit infested, and sometimes bloody vehicles. We may not be certified, but we are certainly certifiable.
I know the voices aren't real, but sometimes they're right!
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Tom Toll
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08/07/2009 10:54 AM

Quote: Bottom line, I am safer today for taking the course. I have the correct equipment, and know how to use it. I'm not sure what all the bickering is about, US Staffing vs KSquared, certificate vs certification.

I think that pretty well says it all. Certified or certification, just words, but the real moment of truth is while your ascending and descending a roof that should require toe boards with rope and harness. There were many times, I mean many times that my heart rate would skyrocket while on a steep and cut up roof. Would I have taken the R&H training years ago, darn tootin I would have. I suggest to all of you that if you can afford this training, take and then apply it. Who you go to for this training is up to you. Just call and discuss it with them and tell them what your expectations are and if they cannot offer it, go to the one that fulfills the most of your expectations. Chuck Deaton uses the R&H and am sure an e-mail to him would deliver you some valuable information. Do whatever it takes to be safe.

Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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DCave
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08/10/2009 12:26 PM
A couple of the pics you guys have posted on here cause some concern and I just wanted to share a few tips with ya.

Try not to cross load your caribiners when anchoring. This weakens the caribiner and can lead to failure of the device.

When anchoring the bowline on a bight knot is a great knot, however; my students had a very difficult time tying the knot without some slippage no matter what unique way I tried to explain it to them. From some research and talking with some experienced climbing folks, I have found that the figure 8 equalizing knot is a good alternative to the bowline knot. With this knot you can also distribute the weight of the rope in 3 different directions if needed. Also there is a 0% chance of slippage occuring. You can google how to tie this knot but it is extremely simple.

Bob Ive seen you using the Gri Gri to rappel yourself down a roof after using the ascender to go up. Thats not a bad idea to use the Gri Gri for lowering yourself, just make sure your using some type of fall prevention device such as the rope grab when ascending in case of slippage. You may be doing that already and I just didnt see it in the pictures.

Stay safe out there.
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BobH
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08/10/2009 8:50 PM
Posted By DCave on 10 Aug 2009 12:26 PM
...Bob Ive seen you using the Gri Gri to rappel yourself down a roof after using the ascender to go up. Thats not a bad idea to use the Gri Gri for lowering yourself, just make sure your using some type of fall prevention device such as the rope grab when ascending in case of slippage. 

I don't know what diameter rope you use, but I have "zero" slippage with my Gri-Gri when I use the 11mm rope. I got a really good deal on some Static 11mm rescue rope made by Sterling, and have a ton of it so that is what I tend to use.  It is stiff as hell, and the Gri-Gri will stop on a dime with that rope when you pull on it.

In that other thread I did mention that with my smaller diameter 10.5mm line (BlueWater Static)  it would not "catch" as fast, but the Gri-Gri DOES catch (even with the smaller line) and act as a sort of "deadman" brake (like a seat-belt that stops you from moving forward).  The Gri-Gri will stop a fall without any other device.  I used it today, and have used the gri-gri by itself on many roofs.  Once I am up to the peak, I often switch over from the Petzl Ascender to the Petzl Gri-Gri to go down the other side, use the Gri-Gri to ascend back up, go back down to where I started, or explore alternate faces of the roof.  I'm working alone now on this deployment, so I tie-off to something on both sides of the house (usually a tree or porch pole).

I personally do not see the need for an additional rope grab "with" the Gri-Gri, but do on occasion use simply the rope grab by itself, especially if the roof is only moderately steep  (my rope-grab is a Gibbs).  I know there are various methods out there, and have observed training from a carrier that shows a 2 rope system - which most people in the field would consider overkill - but I would not take the position that it is "wrong" or that the use of a back-up device is wrong.  I just couldn't live with it everyday, I personally use one device at a time connected to one rope.

I have met adjusters who simply hold the rope in their hands, and that is where I draw the line.  You have to have some sort of mechanical device to hold you and keep you hands-free. 

Posted By DCave on 10 Aug 2009 12:26 PM
A couple of the pics you guys have posted on here cause some concern and I just wanted to share a few tips with ya.

Try not to cross load your caribiners when anchoring. This weakens the caribiner and can lead to failure of the device.

When anchoring the bowline on a bight knot is a great knot, however; my students had a very difficult time tying the knot without some slippage no matter what unique way I tried to explain it to them. 

Dave - was there something specific in one of my pics that caused you concern?  Did you see a caribiner set up incorrectly?  Did you see a knot tied improperly?

I know not to put the load sideways on a caribiner, it needs to be "longways"  not pulled sideways.

I must admit I had trouble remembering how to do the Bowline at first, and spent a long time working with it.  I was practicing those knots before Kevin's class, then Kevin showed us a very, very simple way to tie the "bowline on a bight" and I will never forget it.  I taught it to my ground assistant and watched him closely over the next 2 days, then for the next 3 months I didn't watch him because I knew he could tie it right. 

For me, it is the knot of choice.  From what I have read, mariners have relied on it for ages and it is considered a very strong knot.  For those who haven't tied one and are going to sleep, here is an animated version of tying the bowline on a bight.  There is more than one way to achieve this knot.  This animation is not exactly the way Kevin teaches it but the result is the same.  http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/Abowbit.html

Once someone has worked with this knot, the final result is unmistakable.  You know it when you see it, and know that it is tied right.  And it is very easy to untie, yet strong under load.  Here's http://www.animatedknots.com/bowlinebight/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Bob H
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DCave
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08/11/2009 9:16 AM

Bob,

Nothing I saw in your pics indicated you were cross loading caribiners, that was just a point I was making. The figure eight equalizing knot (not the figure eight follow through) is the alternative anchor knot. It actually has a triple load vs. the bowlines 2. I also said the bowline was a great knot and never cut it down, was just passing on some info that I felt was beneficial. Like you stated new climbers have some degree of difficulty tying the bowline correctly.

Bob my only concern is that when your ascending the roof with only and ascender and you fall, what is going to catch you? The rope grab is designed to be a fall prevention device, not a climbing aid so I was just concerned that on a very steep roof, if you were going up and your hands slipped off the ascender, I think you'd be in trouble. Like I said I'm not out there with ya so I don't know exactly how your doing it, but from all your blogs you really seem to know your stuff. I'm just glad your out there applying it and being safe and setting a great example for the other adjusters.

 

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DCave
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08/11/2009 9:52 AM

In case anyone wanted to see the figure eight equalizing knot heres a link to a pic. If you don't like this knot theres no reason to slam me, just don't use it OK.

http://z.about.com/d/climbing/1/G/c/4/-/-/EqualizingFigure8Knot_2.jpg
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DCave
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08/11/2009 2:06 PM
Another helpful hint thats easy to get wrong. When tying directly into a rope, never tie into the belay loop. When it is possible always tie into the harness directly. The belay loop is not designed to take the full weight of a climber and therefore should not be utilized that way unless there are no other options.

Osha certified harness' which are large, bulky and hard to get on work well in the field, but I find that the rock climbing harness is much lighter, easy to get on and off and more comfortable. Its all up to individual choice, so experiment with different types and styles before you commit to one.
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GWright
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08/11/2009 5:34 PM
WOW and they say I"m the a--hole on this site. Way to go Kevin, show that rear end for everyone to see.

You my friend are a class act!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And anyone who has been reading my posts knows that comes right from the horses mouth

You stuck that to him didnt ya. I bet you high fived so many of your friends after posting all of those. Good job man!!!!!! Keep up the good work.

And I fully expect you to copy my txt where I said I wasnt gonna comment anymore so don't you dare dissapoint me!!!!

Would you send me a war analogy too, Ive really been needing one.
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BobH
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08/11/2009 8:15 PM
Posted By DCave on 11 Aug 2009 09:16 AM

...The rope grab is designed to be a fall prevention device, not a climbing aid so I was just concerned that on a very steep roof, if you were going up and your hands slipped off the ascender, I think you'd be in trouble.  
 

They are connected to my harness with about 16" long loop of webbing (or a "zorber" as you see in this photo I took of my ground-person Tony ascending a slope with Petzl Ascender in one hand, it is anchored to his harness.) 

If he let's go, slips, whatever, he will get some skinned elbows but is not going to move very far from the point where he was at.

I agree we should always be cautious, not run with scissors, etc.  But I am very comfortable with this process.

 

I use the 16" long loop when using the rope-grab as well, and here's a photo of that in action. 
This is Kevin at a class he gave before the newer facility


Bob H
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BobH
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08/11/2009 8:18 PM
Posted By GWright on 11 Aug 2009 05:34 PM
WOW and they say...

Dude, live by your own rules.  

Read what you are preaching, read what you have posted on this forum over the past weeks since you started here, and live by your own rules.
 

Bob H
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mac3821
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08/11/2009 8:25 PM

I'm not usually the guy that will say something like this but I thin Gwright was picked on alot in School......That dude has some axe to grind!!

Stu MacDiarmid
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Catsvstrained
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08/12/2009 5:35 AM
 
CatSvs Trained
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BobH
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08/12/2009 8:54 AM

Gotcha.

I haven't spent much time studying the technical stuff.   

Rope goes through a rope-grab or ascender with almost no resistance.  So I can climb a 3 story ladder, make the transition from ladder-to-roof, and maintain tension on my line very easily.  If I did slip at those points  - well I would be in much better shape than someone who was not roped up.  I would only be moving a few feet before putting tension on the line.  Might screw up the rope, but I doubt it would break it (not the rope I use - or you use).

I gradually "ascend" to the first peak with the Petzl ascender, and do not use it to descend.  Once at the peak, I sit down and change hardware to something else like the Gri-Gri.  Or if the roof isn't too steep I will just use the rope grab - and as you point out it does not have the aggressive teeth that the ascender has. 

The beauty of the Petzl Ascender is that it can be connected to the rope so easily - much faster than connecting to a rope grab or feeding it through a Gri-Gri.  It is a tool that has it's use, but shouldn't be the only wrench in the tool box.

Bob H
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Catsvstrained
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08/12/2009 10:11 AM

There is no such thing as "the perfect" process as all R&H inspections involve risk. R&H Inspection safety can only be measured in proximity to a fictional risk free process as in:

Climbing unasisted on a 10/12 gable roof involves a 18.67% potential for some form of injury.

Climbing a 10/12 gable roof using a 1/2" hemp rope involves a 6.37% potential for some form of injury.

Climbing a 10/12 gable roof using a synthetic rope with an ascender involves a 2.11% potential for some form of injury.

Climbing a 10/12 gable roof using two synthetic ropes, rope grab, Grigri & ascender involves a 1.43% potential for some form of injury. etc....

(Remember Just Opinions Here!)

CatSvs Trained
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BobH
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08/12/2009 6:32 PM
Posted By Catsvstrained on 12 Aug 2009 10:11 AM

There is no such thing as "the perfect" process as all R&H inspections involve risk. R&H Inspection safety can only be measured in proximity to a fictional risk free process as in:

Climbing unasisted on a 10/12 gable roof involves a 18.67% potential for some form of injury.
 

Or more...  Here's a 10/12 that I was on today that acted like a 12/12 because the old shingles had loose granules.

 

 

10/12 Pitch

I had this nice low-pitch porch section to stage on. So I tied off to the chimney with webbing, thinking I would just walk up to the ridge, and use the rope to inspect the front slope.  I could not make it more than a few feet without slipping, and I don't weigh much, and had the best shoes money can buy.

You can actually see the "rubber" my cougar paws left on the roof today, just to the right of the rope.  That is as far as I could make it before slipping down, and I tried several times (it's not often you get to play with a steep roof, having the safety of almost level ground to slide down to). 

I have scaled roofs with this pitch in good condition, but this one just showered granules rather than provide traction.

Bob H
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BobH
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08/12/2009 6:38 PM

This place had perfect chimneys, I was able to scamper up a few feet and toss a loop of rope over the top chimney. 
I would NEVER do that without that flat section below, I would have put a rope over the house and tied off front & back to something solid.

Here's how I got down.  My point - I could not physically get up this roof, in it's loose-granule condition without roping up.

if you are having trouble, and are at all scared going UP a roof, you will be TERRIFIED getting down.  
With this equipment, and some confidence in my knots, I had zero concern climbing this roof today.

Here's the Gri-Gri doing it's "automatic brake under tension" thing, with my smaller 10.5mm Static line that I use occasionally.  This thinner line behaves much different than the stiff 11mm line, it pulls through much faster when ascending and pulling out the slack in the line.  Much less work.  But there is a bit of delay when you put tension on it for the brake to kick in, it will let a foot or so of rope pass through before it "pinches" the line like you see here.

As I mentioned on the previous page, this same Gri-Gri will stop me on a dime with the thicker 11mm rope.  I am comfortable with either rope, you just have to get familiar with it.

Bob H
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Tim_Johnson
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08/12/2009 8:44 PM
Well, did you pay for the roof?
Tim Johnson
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BobH
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08/12/2009 9:00 PM

No.  I am in Michigan right now, and this was a re-inspect of a January Ice-Dam claim. 
They wanted to have their roof checked out.

The wind damage you do see at the lower porch would not be on the radar screen for the Date of Loss.

There was a 70mph wind event that hit neighborhoods north of this house on June 25th that put a lot of trees into houses, and we did have totaled out roofs.  This place was on the edge of that storm and not hit very hard.

Bob H
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DCave
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08/13/2009 10:22 AM
Looks like Kevin and I both agree on the rope grab vs. ascender issue. Thanks Kevin,

BTW cud you please modify your post showing my email address. Thats kinda a family email and I really don't unwanted spam or emails coming in through that. I really appreciate it.

Im currently assisting adjusters now with their steep roofs, setting up equip for them and teaching them basics of climbing "not paid for this :(" but its been a great way to break the ice with adjusters looking to get away from the straight roofing company for assistance.

Through some climbing forums (now Im just repeating what I read) but the only thing everyone on that site confirmed was that devices like the gri gri and ATC are not designed for direct belay. According to this site, the only item that should be safely used is the figure eight belay device. Now obviously the figure eight does not have an automatic stop on it and wouldnt be very useful to an adjuster. I whole-heartedly agree with Kevin that when descending the roof, a rope grab should be the choice for most.

If your the guy on the ground in a two-person climbing operation, the Gri Gri is the way to go, just takes some practice learning how to feather the handle so its not real jerky to the climber. All of my students loved the Gri Gri but felt they were more in control when using the ATC.
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