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Last Post 05/02/2012 5:00 PM by  pdixon555
Test Squares
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campbellduke
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05/31/2007 10:51 PM

    If a carrier requires 10 hits per square and you can only find 7-8 hits per square, how do you explain to the insd that their insurance company does not owe to replace their roof?  How do you tell them that there are approx 400 damaging hail hits to their roof BUT it is not really damaged so they are not getting a new roof.  Then how do you explain to them that they will be getting an estimate for a minimum roof repair of $200 bucks to "repair" 400 damaged shingles?

     

    Also, do you guys pay to replace dented vents when there is no damage to the shingles?  Technically they are damaged.

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    stormcrow
    Member
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    Posts:437


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    06/01/2007 12:56 AM
    7 x number of sq x cost per shingle
    I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
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    russh
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    06/01/2007 7:43 AM
    Peter that doesn't really address his question.

    There is no law requiring a certian number of hits per square that quantifies repair versus replacement. So each insurance company gets to decide for themselves what criteria they are going to use. This is true in many states, I personally do not know of any state that has a law regarding this issue. Keep in mind that each insurance company may use research that has been published that helps assist in identifying damage, but none of the research I've ever read breaks down how many hits per square are needed to recommend roof replacement.
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    stormcrow
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    06/01/2007 10:50 AM
    True, only addressed the last part of the comments. This is a challenge that has caused many an address to spend extra time looking for those elusive last 2 hits per sq. I never discuss the amount of hits per sq, I explain that based on my inspection, the roof is repairable. Depending on the nature of the hits, I might call and recommend to the company that they replace this roof. Also some Insureds are smart enough to know when to be a squeeky wheel. You can be sure that if he has 8 hits a sq most of his neighbors are getting new roofs. He will also have a hard time finding a roofer who would repair damage at that level. More then once I have revised a house like that with the company re-inspector (or supervisor) and have been to told replace.
    I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
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    Ray Hall
    Senior Member
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    Posts:2443


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    06/01/2007 11:37 AM

    You need to figure out when the cost to repair the hit shingles will exceed the cost to replace a square of shingles and explain it to the homeowner. Ask your supervisor to explain it to you.

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    Catmannn
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    Posts:45


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    06/01/2007 7:31 PM

    My, My,

    Guess you should go to work for a vender that total's every roof.  Then you could be called a true West Texas Roof Jumper.

    Houtz

     

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    campbellduke
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    06/02/2007 12:07 AM
    I understand how the system works, my point of the post is that I think it is stupid to give a repair estimate on a roof that has 7 real (not a roofer scratching a wear and tear spot with his finger) hits per square. It is obviously damaged. The life of the roof is compromised due to the hail. I think you are joking Ray but I am not sure. How exactly do you repair a hail hit shingle??
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    stormcrow
    Member
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    Posts:437


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    06/02/2007 2:32 AM

    If you are serious about becoming an adjuster read some of the many threads on this subject. Then answer  your own question.

    I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
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    HuskerCat
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:762


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    06/02/2007 2:34 AM

    A fairly new roof can be repaired shingle-by-shingle, but an old roof maybe cannot. 

    I understand the frustrations of the initial poster, because certain carriers I've worked for required 7-8 hits and others 10-12 (which I personally feel is excessive).    However, the 10-12 hitters said if the repair factor exceeded 60% of RC (including steep & height), then that qualified same as total.   For instance, as Peter said, 7 hits @ $8/ea = $64.   I would use 1.3 factor for waste & adjacents, for total of  7 X $10.40 or $72.80 per sq.  Figure your 60% from there, and you might be close to total loss depending on geographical area. 

    Sometimes you might have homes on the same block.  Can kinda make you look foolish if they are next door neighbors, and one is totalled while the other isn't.  But I have had it happen many times, in the case of an old roof vs. a new roof. That's where you just have to explain repairability.   It can be done on newer roofs...not as easily on older ones.   You old guys have seen it plenty of times, I'm sure.  No damage evident on one roof, and down the street it looks like it got hammered...just due to age and vulnerability.

    This is just a personal opinion formed from my mentors while a staffer for 3 different carriers, prior to being an independent.  Go by what your carrier or manager tells you.  Or hope the carrier has a local staffer with authority that can make the call for you based on your observations and recommendations.    

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    Catmannn
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    Posts:45


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    06/02/2007 7:35 AM
    Sorry about the quick remark I made.
    1.. do a second set of TQ's
    2. all hail damage does not make the same impact marks
    3. check into the repairability of the shingles.
    4. secure roofing company estimates reflecting a total loss.
    5. review with your storm superivisor
    6. or do the thing that you have been hired to do, and that is to say to the insured that your roof is repairable and this will be my write up to your carrier.

    Houtz
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    Olivegreen
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    Posts:15


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    06/03/2007 9:23 AM
    The existing roof was installed one shingle at a time. Per policy language repair or replace is the company's choice.

    We pay only what is considered functional damage by Haag, so granule loss is not enough. Vents we do pay for cosmetic damage (dings) though, so that's confusing for people.

    Had one the other day, need to change vents, no damage to shingles at all, but all slopes run together, closed valleys, replacing the whole enchilada.
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    JSmith
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    Posts:4


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    06/04/2007 5:03 PM
    Mr. Soup, you obviously are very new to adjusting. Try pulling out a policy and read it. Just because you want to replace every roof in town doesn't mean the carrier owes for it. Your job is to determine what the carrier owes per the POLICY that they purchased. You are not Santa bearing gifts! Lemme guess, your cousin does this for a living and told you of all the money to be made. You worked Katrina and haven't worked since. Getting warm?
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    campbellduke
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    Posts:5


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    06/05/2007 11:17 PM

    Getting Warm????     Not exactly John Smith.  If you had an IQ above 100 you would be able to see that my original post was poking fun at the inexact science of hail estimating.    Do you have an IQ of 100 (I believe I am getting warm) I have been adjusting for 8 1/2 years (2 as a staff adjuster and a little over 6 as an independent adjuster.  I have inspected hail claims in every part of the country. 

    Have I read the policy?  Are you referring to the one that says we cover damage by hail?  If you had any clue as to what you were talking about, you would know that hail is a big gray area.   If a roof has 7 hits per square and is 50 squares then there are more than 350 hits on the roof.  It is funny to me that as an adjuster you are supposed to explain to someone that there roof with 350 damaging hits is not really damaged-I was trying to be humerous.  I see that this was way over your head. 

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    spierce
    Guest
    Guest
    Posts:6


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    06/06/2007 11:45 PM

    To me test squares are a joke.  Strictly a tool for carriers to deny claims or repair as opposed to replace.  If a roof has damaging hits on multiple slopes, per an insurance contract, policy, roof should be replaced.

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    spierce
    Guest
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    Posts:6


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    06/07/2007 12:25 AM

    I have to agree with the poster here.  Mr. John Smith is most certainly a lifer with one of the big 4.  Warmer????  He feels important denying claims to insureds.  Fuels his power trip.  It is guys like him that make you hesitate to divulge your career to strangers.  If its damaged, replace it.  If its not dont.  Making something simple way to difficult.

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    spierce
    Guest
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    Posts:6


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    06/07/2007 12:32 AM

    Mr. Houtz, you are hired to properly adjust the claim.  If shingles show damage from hail they should be replaced.  If multiple slopes have damage they should be replaced, the entire roof.  Repairing shingle by shingle is a real joke and is not what the policy states.  Pre loss condition ???  Now what the heck is that term,,,,indemnity or something like that.  Excuse my spelling.  Yeah I read that somewhere.  Common sense can be a useful tool when adjusting as well.  Too many here REALLY FEEL COOL to deny or repair instead of replace on claims.  Apply policy properly, validate the damage, document and apply intelligence and common sense.   Easy Peasey.

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    cajunadj
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    Posts:22


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    06/07/2007 10:15 AM

    I work for one of the big four and that has nothing to do with the replacing of roofs. I have benn in situations where the hail damage was minimal, but the condition of the roof prior made repairs impossible and allowed to replace anyway. I have been on roofs where there were as many as six layers and all of them should have been replaced before the storm. Never have I been told that so many hits per square was written in stone. Every time I have been told to use your best judgement and if the condition is such that repairs are not able to be done, just document the file and replace. As long as you can justify your decision and it is well documented, no one has said you should not have done so.

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    Jud G.
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:509


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    06/09/2007 11:12 PM

    One company's arrangement currently allows roof replacement on a slope by slope basis provided that each of the four test squares contains 6 hits/1 square.  Must prepare four test squares per each N, S, E, W face.  I've always done 10/hits per square and one square per roof without too much of a problem in explaining the reason for denial.  Both approaches are effective.  They are also based on time tested methods from very experienced Adjusters and Mgt. personell striving to accomplish mutual satisfaction- in light of the language of the given policy.

    I like Mr. Houtz's six (6) points on the bottom of the first page and Mr. Guillory's post just above this one.  Adjusting most hail claims is a breeze with straight down 1.5" hail or bigger.  Yet, being an Adjuster requires us to see the big picture and investigate each claim on a case by case basis.  Using test squares is a great tool and is the most common way to effectively determine repairability versus replacement.  It is not the only tool, though.  With clear judgement and effective communication, we strive to improve on the amount of reopens and the amount of time to close our claims.  It appears that we are all closer to being on the same page than we realize.

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    PORTASATGUY
    Guest
    Guest
    Posts:49


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    06/29/2007 10:39 PM

    very simple, If your Staff you utilize a Roof Process form of some type, If you are Are Independant You use the Same Forms, But Buy the roof No matter what! Or At least thats what I have Ran Across at least 1 gazillion times.

    Bottom Line, If your a Professional Adjuster you will do the RIGHT THING, Weather on Fee Schedule or Not! And If your NOT EXPERIENCED, Or Just DONT KNOW....... Take Time and LEARN! 

     

    Last Year I was on at least 1200 Roofs, Mostly Hail, And I can HONESTLY SAY, If It needed replacement It got Replaced, and If NOT It didnt. And MOST of the Carrier's I worked with had a Roof Process of some type,. Or In The JIT Meeting We have Criteria Set at that time! 

    I just am off of a Hail storm, and I SWARE I saw Adjusters Buying roof's that was Spidered or alligatored, Or just because they saw Granules in the Gutters.

    LOOK FOR COLLATTERAL DAMAGES, Vents, Siding, Mailboxes, Neighborhood damages etc. If you dont know what a Hail hit looks Like, I have thousands of Pics, I will be Happy to share, and I imagine there are some on CADO somewhere, Bottom Line Be Honest, Documnet, take Pictures, And ADJUST! 

    I know of a few Adjusters (I will not mention names) That used a Ball pein Hammer to Buy Roofs, And to ME, THAT IS A VIOLATION OF TRUST, and IS as well I consider a slap in the face to those of us who are in fact on the roof for all the right reasons! 

    DO THE RIGHT THING!  Life is good!

      

     

    R. Estes
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    Nicka0782
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    Posts:24


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    08/31/2007 2:24 AM
    I see no reason for a test square other than to document the damage to your superiors. There are too many factors that play a role, hail size, roof age, repairability, etc... Damage is damage and the homeowner should be compensated for it but how much and why is the question. If you cant justify buying a roof just off of hail hits but know it should be replaced than look for collateral damages. I have met two types of adjusters...those who look for reasons to pay on a claim, and those who look for reasons not to pay on a claim. The later think that is their job specification, the first keep on working... i guess each roof has to be dealt on a claim by claim basis.

    with that being said...i have seen a sickening amount of roofs being bought in Minnesota after the recent storms due to what i as a contractor would consider minimal hail damage. i guess adjusters are just happy to be working on claims...
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