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Last Post 03/31/2010 6:08 PM by  jedevich
Steep Roofs
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JimAustin
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07/24/2009 12:52 PM

    Hi all adjusters out there.  I'm new to the industry and would like some info on steep roof training.  Where do I get this? Is there some place better than others? Should I even bother with it? Would a company like REI or someone like that be able to provide me training?  I just know getting on anything over 9/12 scares me a little bit and Ive been told that carriers do not want adjusters running around with roofers anymore.

    Ive googled rope and harness training and all I get is some guy down in Houston and a company out of Irving, TX.  If someone out there has attended these schools, could you give me some feedback on them.  I would prefer to hear from someone that has taken the courses and not the actual course trainers as I'm sure they both think their schools are the best.  I even read on one of the web sites a big article on how I should choose one of them over the other one so I'm very skeptical at this point about that particular guys methods.

    If someone knows of a competent place to get this training can they let me know.  Also does anybody know if an adjuster can get fined for climbing a steep roof wihout using proper equipment.  Does OSHA regulate insurance adjusting?  Ive heard a couple of different scenarios under that discussion.

    Thanks to all of you for your responses.

    Mike Smith
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    07/24/2009 6:45 PM
    Any training is usefull to have, but if you are new to the industry, I wouldn't think a rope & harness class would be the first thing you'd want to look into. How new are you? Do you have your adjusting basics down, Xactimate, etc? Do you need CE credits?

    My opinion is that rope & harness training is the kind of thing you do when you've been adjusting for a while and want to expand your options, not the kind of thing you do when you are just getting your foot in the door. But, if you have the time and the money, loading up on classes and certifications never hurts.
    BobH
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    07/24/2009 11:02 PM
    Posted By JimAustin on 24 Jul 2009 12:52 PM

    ...  I'm new to the industry and would like some info on steep roof training. 
     

    Have you seen this thread: http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...fault.aspx

    also one on ladder safety http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...fault.aspx

    Bob H
    JimAustin
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    07/27/2009 10:34 AM
    Thanks Bob I went to that thread and that was very informative.

    Mr. Kramer is the guy in Houston I was speaking of. Ive read several of his articles in here, some good and some not so good. He speaks very derogatively about some other companies in here and that concerns me a little. The man seems to know what hes doing but can I expect to get any exposure getting a certification or certificate from an individual versus a company like US Staffing? Will those hold the same weight?

    Ive contacted some of my close friends with State Farm and they spoke to the people in charge of the rope and harness division and they claim that they've never heard of Mr. Kramer and that he never trained adjusters from that company. Their information also confirmed that State Farm uses US Staffings training facility to train their adjusters. They don't use the US Staffing trainer but they do use their indoor climbing roof.

    As far as my experience, yes I am new but Ive been told that most new adjusters are going to be looking at primarily roofs only with some minor interior damages.

    In his articles and blogs Mr. Kramer speaks of various certifications and companies hes has trained through or is in associatoin with. Will I get those same certifications from getting my training with him? He claims US Staffing was trained by him, so essentially won't they be teaching the same course? I'm just a little confused about this whole thing. I was really hoping I would hear from someone that had gone to US Staffing before I made any decision.

    Thanks for the responses.
    Ray Hall
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    07/27/2009 11:52 AM

    I think you are in the middle of a squalble of training schools. I don,t think US Staffing trains State Farm Adjusters. None of the traing schools have any creditability except VALE TEC. I was trained by my employer, a major insurance company who sent me to a lot of legal, construction, theory  and letter writing schools but none of these schools can certify you as competant......

    I took the State Farm and Allstate test many years ago and the vendor who sponsered me made it very clear. "I was now eligable to work for these two carriers, but I had no certifications. No standards exist that I know off.

    BobH
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    07/27/2009 11:52 PM
    Posted By JimAustin on 27 Jul 2009 10:34 AM
    Ive contacted some of my close friends with State Farm and they spoke to the people in charge of the rope and harness division and they claim that they've never heard of Mr. Kramer and that he never trained adjusters from that company. Their information also confirmed that State Farm uses US Staffings training facility to train their adjusters. 

    Do you know people in the Nat Cat team of State Farm, or were you just talking to the local claims people?

    Honestly there are so many people working at the National Cat team as State Farm staff that they do not know every other person there.   If you are talking to simply the local claims department, they are not on the same radar screen we are talking about.

    Ray's right, they train their own (at least the Cat team of State Farm).  I am currently deployed with State Farm as an independent and have worked with them quite a bit.  Keven and I worked out of the same office at Katrina, he is a good guy in my opinion.  We all have our baggage, and I am no exception. 

    As to the main focus of your post - really you could do all the training in the world and still go broke in this business.  it is very hard to keep steady work, it is something we all have to work at.  You can have qualifications out the wazoo and still have grief landing a gig. 

    In my opinion, the reason to do the steep training is just for safety.  I roped up on a 12/12 with loose granules today that would have been totally a widow-maker without a rope & harness.  And there is no way the damage could have been seen from the ground.  Only a few shingles were missing, they were 30 year laminates with random tears throughout, with nails pulled through asphalt.  The tears blended in with the dimensional look, you had to really get up close, and draw chalk lines so it would show up on the camera.

     

    Bob H
    JimAustin
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    07/28/2009 9:54 AM
    Thanks again Bob you are quite informative and professional. Yes, the buddies I have checked with both State Farm Nat Cat and local about Mr. Kramer. This doest mean he didnt train them in the past, there may just be new folks in there now that don't know him. Staff companies are revolving doors from what Ive heard.

    No Ray I did not say that US Staffing trained State Farm adjusters I simply said they used their facility. And yes I quite understand there is a squabble of some sorts going on but I have not seen one derogatory comment from someone at US Staffing about Mr. Kramers facility. I cannot say the same thing for the other.

    Im just trying to get the best training possible. I sure appreciate all of your comments and as far as the certifications thing, that is exactly what I thought. There is no such thing as a steep roof certification, its just for personal safety.
    BobH
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    07/28/2009 8:12 PM
    Posted By JimAustin on 28 Jul 2009 09:54 AM
    ...and as far as the certifications thing, that is exactly what I thought. There is no such thing as a steep roof certification, its just for personal safety.

    Actually, I mentioned my opinion, the reason to do the steep training is just for safety.
    I didn't say there wasn't a certification:

     

    Bob H
    Amart
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    08/04/2009 8:23 PM
    If the training you offer is half as good as the posts you make here, i do not expect many disappointed customers.

    I think safety is one of the most overlooked things in this industry. I remember during Ike there were a few roofs i did not feel comfortable climbing and was very embarrassed by that, not wanting to call my claims manager i just decided to be a big boy and step up to the plate. One house was a 2-story on a slab, i put my ladder up by the valley and started my accent. I quickly ran up the valley and start walking the roof taking measurements. On the way back down however i decided it would be best to distribute my weight over both feet and hands. After arriving at the eave after a slow slide, i had tear in my pants and my hands were torn up and bleeding. I am not sure why but when i got to the eave and put my foot out ready to fall is when i stopped.

    The next day after a long night of scrubbing my hands to get the particles out of my hand i decided i would get a pair of Cougar paws and not climb a roof i was not comfortable with. That day i had another roof about like the previous, i decided to call in a ladder assist. When i roofer arrived i was surprised to hear that he would not climb it either. So i got all my measurements via footprint and took my ladder around all the eaves to get a view of the damages.

    Never again will i put my life on the line for a paycheck when i KNOW there IS A BETTER WAY, but was just too busy or lazy or whatever. When you fall off that roof and break something or worse, it will not make a difference to your injuries as to why you did not get training. They will not heal any faster or be any less severe because you were busy.
    BobH
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    08/04/2009 10:17 PM
    Posted By Amart on 04 Aug 2009 08:23 PM
    ...On the way back down however i decided it would be best to distribute my weight over both feet and hands. After arriving at the eave after a slow slide, i had tear in my pants and my hands were torn up and bleeding.  

    Sometimes it takes a humbling experience to force us to change our habits, or take the extra effort to learn how to conquer something.  I know I went up some widow-maker roofs that prompted me to fly from my home town in California to Houston, 2 days hotel, and the class was a fraction of the cost of the trip.  I would do it again in a heartbeat, and now carry my rope & equipment and use it anytime the roof is at all spooky.  Some roofs will shed granules like BB's and even cougar paws will not save you.  You need to be able to rope up, regardless of who trains you or of you do your own research, it's better than landing "jelly side down" on the ground.

    I am not sure why but when i got to the eave and put my foot out ready to fall is when i stopped. 

    In my un-educated opinion, I believe it is because you placed all of your weight on fewer points of contact when you lifted one of your 4 paws.  I am not a crab-walker and believe in wearing the best-gripping shoes you can (www.cougarpaws.com) and placing all of your weight on the feet.  Move SLOWLY on a steep roof, and never walk back-wards.  If I am not roped up and it is a semi-steep roof, I would NEVER do it without cougar paws, and I walk with one hand ready to grab the ridge if I slip and the toes pointing down to the eve.

    If you have to get down and there is not a valley to reduce the angle... then is when you realize you should have roped up.  It's not that big of a deal once you get used to it.  Where I am deployed right now I don't need it that often, but at least once a week I pull up to a house that is spooky and I get the rope out.  Again here's another thread with some amature photos http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/tabid/60/aff/28/aft/10829/afv/topic/Default.aspx

     

    Bob H
    GWright
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    08/05/2009 10:13 AM
    CatsvsTrained..... I"m sure theres a point in there somewhere but I do not have the time to analyze and break down all the deep meaning in your writings. I know your the guy in Houston that does rope and harness. Don't get me wrong, the training you provide is invaluable to the industry. Anyone that doesnt get this type of training is a true idiot for climbing a steep roof without equipment.

    As far as Bob, I guess you've never taken any criticism in your life. I simply said do not mislead people to thinking there is a rope and harness certification. There is not one for insurance adjusters. You cannot get a certification from CatvsTrained or US STaffing or whoever and work in the climbing industry as a certified climber. Sure you can work as an adjuster but thats it. If thats what you were going for then way to go buddy!!!! Now should everyone seek this training. ABSOLUTELY!

    Not every comment here is an attack towards you guys character or intelligence. Take it for what its worth and stop being a baby.
    DCave
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    08/05/2009 11:59 AM
    Man do I ever get a kick out of this forum. I will tell ya I read this stuff almost every day and it never ceases to amaze me at the levels some will go to.

    GWright however abraisive is correct, there is no certification for steep roof climbing, but there is training that will save your life. Wherever you get it, get it is my recommendation!

    Again, keep the opinions flying. Guys like Ray and Tom and Medulus always have great comebacks and comments and I know all the old and new adjusters out there are getting great entertainment from them.

    Stay safe out there, Hurricanes are right around the corner!
    BobH
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    08/05/2009 7:10 PM
    Posted By GWright on 05 Aug 2009 10:13 AM
    As far as Bob, I guess you've never taken any criticism in your life. ...Not every comment here is an attack towards you guys character or intelligence. Take it for what its worth and stop being a baby.

    I'm supposed to be criticized because...  I'm sorry, I forgot what I did wrong.

    You are either a fairly new adjuster, like 2 years or less, or you are one of the ones that gives the rest of us a bad name.
    Your profile is blank, or I would be more specific. 

    Much more important than the ability to estimate & measure, is the ability to negotiate an amicable agreement with parties involved to a loss.  You just seem to stir up the pot, on this and other threads.

    I hope you are more polite to your policyholders than you are to your peers. 

     

    Posted By GWright on 05 Aug 2009 10:13 AM 
    Sure you can work as an adjuster but thats it. If thats what you were going for then way to go buddy!!!! 

    Have you noticed the name of this web site?  We are adjusters.  What is your issue?

     

    I simply said do not mislead people to thinking there is a rope and harness certification. There is not one for insurance adjusters.

    I just posted an image of one...  and it was good enough for my vendor.  They paid me well for working rope & Harness in Atlanta from April through June when the claims wrapped up.  If it's good enough for one of the largest insurance companies in the world, I say it is good enough. 

    Why are we having this conversation?  What is your battle? 

    Bob H
    GWright
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    08/06/2009 9:06 AM
    A couple of things I do know Bob!

    1. You love tootin your own horn-Everyone knows you are currently deployed and workin for State Farm.
    2. You can dish out the heat but get offended when somebody fires back at you.
    3. Are a big fan of the rope and harness industry-(nothin wrong with that)
    4. Spend a ton of time on Caddo. And again are currently deployed and working for State Farm.
    5. Did I mention that you work for State Farm?
    BobH
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    08/06/2009 9:28 AM
    Let's just consider that you got in the last word, and drop this.
    Bob H
    Tom Toll
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    08/06/2009 12:24 PM

    GWright, A/K/A, Dudley DoWright. After having looked at your profile, you appear to be a meddler and mud kicker as opposed to being a CERTIFIED adjuster. I don't usually criticize people, but I don't like friends of mine criticized, unless due. I am fully aware of Bob's qualifications and they are excellent. What exactly are yours, certainly not diplomacy.

    Common sense applies here. R&H training was not offered many years ago when I was climbing roofs that were more dangerous than my jumping out of an airplane at 15,000 feet, which I have done many times. I have been fortunate for quite a few years having not fallen off one roof, save one. I blame myself for that one fall, it was not applying common sense. Attitudes are an important part of this business, and that does include diplomacy. In my humble opinion, R&H should be required on all roof pitches in excess of 10/12 and 9/12 is borderline for safety. additional pay should be present while ascending and descending a roof pitch at 10/12 and above, especially two and three story, whether using rope or not. Of course we know that will not happen, but it should be as hazard pay. Do you think some of the vendors care whether you fall from a roof, no way. They just get upset because you are no longer productive as a result of that fall. Some do care, however.

    Certification is not necessary for Rope and Harness in this occupation , but it is beneficial when you have a piece of paper that says you have passed an R&H class and are certified for it. Your basically have a knowledge to know how to climb a roof while applying the R&H training. Safety first, among all others.

    Sorry Bob, I just could not drop this issue and if this allows a Smart A** comment from Dudley, let it be.

    Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
    GWright
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    08/06/2009 12:37 PM
    Name calling, mud slinging and uninformed. Wow I can see how your a moderator on here. Great job!

    I clearly stated that R & H is important so you obviously didnt read any of my comments through.

    As far as my qualifications, that will just have to be a mytery to you since I don't like to toot my horn about who all ive worked for and how great I am.

    As far as my comments and slingin, this will be my last, delete it if you want. No one can post a single question or comment on this site without the same old farts responding back with some witty comment and then slappin each other on the back about how wonderful you all are.

    You can have your commentary section back don't worry I'm done.
    Tom Toll
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    08/06/2009 2:01 PM

    You and I both know your not going to quit reading on this site. Your commentary is welcome, I just suggest you use your words more carefully. Diplomacy is imporant, whether you wish to use it or not is your right. What are the ol timers expected to do, tell everyone we just started yesterday. Trader and I combined have almost a hundred years experience, or close to it. Do we waste that knowledge because someone is irritated by ol timers, I hardly think so. Most readers appreciate what advice is being given. Sometimes we get a little irked by some of the immature, irrational statements made. Who wouldn't.

    Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
    JimAustin
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    08/06/2009 2:16 PM
    Excellent Tom!

    You have taken the high road. I think its easy for all of us to get caught up when we feel like we or our friends are being attacked. I havent said much since I posted this topic since it got so out of control but I do appreciate a senior member such as yourself showing some class.

    Ive been able to do enough research and pick my facility to get my training from so thanks to all who posted positive responses and recommendations! I don't feel the need to share who Ive chosen but will certainly come back and give some feedback on that school once Ive completed the course.

    Thanks again everyone!
    Ray Hall
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    08/06/2009 7:43 PM
    I will bet a cup of coffee that Gwright has a connection with US Staffing as I was not to kind to them as their employment contract was never posted and he labeled me as full of hate when I ask. He is the only person who ever made this slur to my face or on a public forum, but I know the truth sets you free, try it GW.
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