Tear Out vrs. Remove
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Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 5:11:29 PM
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PvtNvestigator
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I know that this is estimating 101, but I am trying to settle a debate and would like to know if anyone knows where these estimating action definitions can be found.
We are trying to settle the difference in the meaning between "Tear Out" and "Remove" and when you would apply each. I know one Adjuster that uses "Tear Out" on all of his assignments regardless and I feel that is inappropriate. Anyone?
Oh yea...only respond if you have something positive to add in my search for the answer. Which means if I have misspelled a word, used improper grammer, or you just think that everyone should know this, then move on to another forum..
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William "Bill" Roberts
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 5:21:05 PM
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jadle
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Bill, We have used the terms "tear out" and remove synonymously. Usually I have seen "tear out" used for mitigation and remove used for just about everything else that was not mitigation. Hope this helps.
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 5:30:15 PM
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PvtNvestigator
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Jason,
Appreciate the input. However, in most of the pricing databases that I have to use there is a price difference between "Tear Out" and "Remove" the majority of the time. On some items it can be significant. Thanks again, but still looking.
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William "Bill" Roberts
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RE: Tear Out VS.. Remove - 8/11/2006 5:31:53 PM
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jadle
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Home base: Potsdam, NY
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Out of curiosity, which software are you using?
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 5:49:19 PM
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kmerian
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Home base: San Antonio, Tx
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I have always understood "tear out" to be removing something in non salvagable condition and remove to be removing something in either salvagable condition or with the intent of reinstalling. A good example would be carefully removing a toilet to replace a floor and then re-installing the same toilet, versus just "tearing out" the toilet by taking a sledgehammer to it. Hope this helps.
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 6:15:09 PM
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skippy
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I have to agree with the above poster , in my work that is how i use the differences , "tear out" as in violent non recoverable removal process (similar or same to mitigation surcumstances also as noted above) where "remove" is generally put to use when somethign has to be reused or it is assumed it will be reused or what have you ...
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Jeff "Skippy" Sizemore
ACA
FL licensed (all lines adjuster)
Live for the here an now as tomorow is never promised
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 6:28:13 PM
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Wes
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I am with kmerian on this. 'Tear Out' is for demolition, 'Remove' is for possible resetting or salvage.
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 9:01:59 PM
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PvtNvestigator
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Thanks everyone! The answers stated above are inline with my understanding of the terms. That is why I felt it was inappropriate to just bottom line everything as "Tear Out". With that being said, let's present this scenario:
Wind damage to one elevation of vinyl siding tears loose enough rows to warrant replacing the elevation. Would you (A) Remove and Replace the vinyl siding on the elevation or (B) Tear Out and Replace the vinyl siding on this elveation.
Second scenario:
Water damage to 1/2" drywall celing; You have decided to replace the complete ceiling square footage. Which estimate action would you use...Tear Out or Replace?
Thanks to everyone that responds.
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William "Bill" Roberts
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/11/2006 9:08:11 PM
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dcmarlin
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As an adjuster, I'd Tear Out & Replace the siding. As a homeowner, I'd request the contactor remove it so that it can be salvaged for repairs next time I had damage that won't exced the deductible.
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 1:20:58 AM
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trader
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would you use the word "sister or "scab" a timber to an existing cracked timber . Why not use one word "reset and one cost amount. The reader could/should understand you can not reset unless you "unset"
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 4:01:30 AM
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racko
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"tear out", "remove", "tamato", tamotto"... guess it all comes down to who hears what! Or, who puts what in the estimating programs. Pretty much all means the same don't it?? I don't know what system you're using, or if there is an option of "tear out" vs. "remove" for the same operation you referenced....is there?
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 8:01:26 AM
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jlombardo
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Racko,
Yeah, but tear out sounds like it is a lot more fun!!!!!
LOL
Ps. Not taking sides in this one...just goofing around....
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 9:33:21 AM
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PvtNvestigator
Posts: 120
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There is a difference between estimating actions "Tear Out" and "Remove". For example, it exist in MSB IC and with most of the building materials the action that you choose can have a definitive and measurable result. For example, in the evaluation copy that MSB sends out, for 1"X6", 6' treated fence it states "Remove" $1.80 and "Tear Out" $1.29 per LF; another example would be 1/2" ceiling drywall "Remove" .10 and "tear Out" .12 per SF. (Don't start hammering the low prices in MSB...save it for another forum) I am in agreement that the estimating action "Tear Out" should be and is understood to be used when "less" care in removal is acceptable. The operation "Remove" would be used when there is either possible salvage value to the material and/or due care is justified in order not to damage co-existing building materials in the surrounding area.
Trader, I believe I understand your point (at least I think I do..I can never really tell for sure), but in this case there is a measureable difference between the two operations in the software that we personally have to use for several carriers. This is just one more attempt by me to hone my estimating skills to better reflect the damages that I have before me. It is these small differences in a skill set that sets you apart from others in your chosen profession. Oh my..did I say this was a profession? Here we go again....
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William "Bill" Roberts
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 9:37:45 AM
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paigetex
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Or you could start writing your estimates in Xactimate instead of Integriclaim.
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Paige
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 10:49:21 AM
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trader
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Now some of the flaws of describing the operations in estimating losses in programs that do not have the operation or will not let you "manuscript" a more vivid description is coming forward.
How would you describe this operation in x-mate. A doctors office has severe water damage to the carpet, pad and baseboard in the x-ray room. A Siemens team must be flown in to move the machine to another room, then back to its place and calibrate the machine. The device is Contents.
Software programs are like cookie cutters and that is their intended purpose; however claims are settled each day without a puter.
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 11:01:20 AM
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Tom_Toll
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Bill, I have to agree with your synopsis. Tear out and remove is different. I have a fire loss and must tear out everything without respect of re using the material. To remove items would be a process of saving the item for further use. Tear out is demolition of that item.
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Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 11:16:43 AM
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CATdawg
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My last file examiner made a distinction between "remove and replace" and "remove and reset". He rarely wished to see "tear-out". I deferred to his judgement.
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Lee Norwood
"Many a time have skillful workmen tried to contrive a wheel that shall turn of itself..." -Archimedes
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 12:49:53 PM
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PvtNvestigator
Posts: 120
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Paige...please refer to this quote out of my original post...thanks..."Oh yea...only respond if you have something positive to add in my search for the answer. Which means if I have misspelled a word, used improper grammer, or you just think that everyone should know this, then move on to another forum" Trader, I agree with you 100% that a good number of claims are adjusted daily without the assistance of estimating software. With that said, I am still faced with searching for every way possible to get the best results with the tools that are placed upon me (X-mate v. IC v. Powerclaim, ect..) However, the understanding that estimating software is just a tool and a professional (Oops..said it again..sorry) Adjuster should not allow himself/herself to be handicapped into thinking that these softwares will solve every issue and contains every item in the real world. Without a business policy in front of me, it is difficult for me to adjust your scenario. However, I would figure that to gain access to the repairs, then I would have to move the x-ray machine, remove/reset the carpet (or tear out/replace depending on condition and type of carpet);tear out/replace pad; and remove/reset or remove/replace the base molding. As far as resetting & recalibrating the machine, then I would have to defer to the policy to see if I could afford the coverage. What do you think? Lee...unfortunately we do have to occasionally alter our estimating habits to have our files accepted. When in Rome...However, if I choose an operation than I want to be able to intelligently defend my chioce and how it applies to the situation at hand.
An example of when I have used "Tear Out" and "Remove" in the same area was during a tree on structure windstorm assignment. A large oak had destroyed the Insured's attached garage and I met with the Insured's Contractor to discuss the scope of damages. After reaching an agreement of what need to be done to indemnify the Insured and not remodel his garage & 1/2 bath ( ), I completed my estimate of damages. I used the "tear out" action for most of the actual removal of the building materials except in those instances where the building material adjoined an area that was not to be rebuilt, for instance, the wall between the kitchen and the garage.
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William "Bill" Roberts
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 1:23:07 PM
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SLprice
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Bill,
As your last post suggest (in the last paragraph), there is another usage for the remove operation. Several of the other post have mentioned using remove when the item is going to be reused, however remove is also appropriate to use when you are trying not to cause further damage in the area that you are removing the item - thus the increase in cost due to increase in labor time. An example could be you are repairing an area of damaged drywall, not an entire room. When you remove the damaged drywall you want to take care not to cause damage to the undamaged area. Another example is you are removing tile for for a repair, such as a lower shower pan repair. You don't want to remove more tile then is necessary for the repair, thus you are taking more care when you remove the tile.
Sherry Price
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RE: Tear Out vrs. Remove - 8/12/2006 1:43:10 PM
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trader
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Just take my word the carpet, walls and x-ray is covered under the improvements & betterments section of the Policy. The machine is Contents coverage. How would you write up the loss on both sections of the coverage using x-mate .
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