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Last Post 07/07/2009 10:17 AM by  Ray Hall
problem with powerclaim
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MJW
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09/11/2008 8:19 AM
Ya, there are plenty of guys that will do work cheaper. They also probably don't have a successful legally run business. Saying that Troy is no better than being a cheap HO that can find a homeless man to do the work cheaper. We hear that from some adjusters, and it just sounds so unprofessional.

Thanks for the info that it is not a software problem, but a data entry problem by the lazy user.
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BobH
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09/11/2008 8:16 PM
Posted By Joe Woolhouse 
Ya, there are plenty of guys that will do work cheaper. ...We hear that from some adjusters, and it just sounds so unprofessional.

Let's look at what he really said - because you are twisting it into something more sinister.

Posted By Troy Olson 
...I have been paying $220-240 a square for a simple walk on roof. I do it all the time line Item $240 remove and replace, add a note (all inclusive, complete to code)then I will add $450 for dumpster. If it is high or steep I will add for that on a separate line.

I doubt that Troy is pulling a price out of thin air. At a casual glance, not being focused on the zip code he is working - the price doesn't sound terribly low. And he is aware of what is or isn't included, and when to add for high, or steep.

Let's not throw him under the bus. Some adjusters (and roofers) should be thrown under, but it is a small %. Most of us are trying to do the right thing.

Bob H
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MJW
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09/11/2008 8:52 PM
I agree Bob....most of us try to do the right thing. That is the reason for my original post.

We get and do all of our jobs by referral of homeowners. We see many different adjusters and ins. companies. Why should we do a job for less money on job "A" with Adjuster "#1", rather than doing job "B" for more money with adjuster "#2". These programs are zip code specific and line item specific. Why can an adjuster lump line items into one price category, when the next adjuster will pay exactly what the repairs are?

When I write estimates for a roof, I have a line item for removal, a line item for replace, a line item for replace tar paper, a line item for I&W. Some adjuster's have a line item for shingles R&R including felt and also pay I&W........well, not all of that roof gets tar paper(even though it should, different subject), some of it only gets I&W. Now with that line item lumped they are paying for tarpaper where it isn't even applied.

My point being, I try to be as fair as possible. I only want to be paid for what we actually do. On the same token, I need to get paid for exactly what we do. If we have valleys that take more time, it should be paid. If we have step flashing that takes an extra hour, it should be paid. If it is a straight roof or siding, then it should be a base price that doesn't include valleys, step flashing, etc....

This whole business could work much better if we were all on the same page.
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BobH
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09/11/2008 9:02 PM

Gotcha. If a price isn't right, just ask the adjuster to print out exactly what is included in the repair item. With Xactimate, they just F8 the repair step (or click on the picture to the right of the repair description, to get "more info").

Like we were touching on earlier, people don't always REALLY understand what is or isn't included in a repair step. I think the most common error I see in newer adjusters is what ISN'T THERE. They haven't stayed in one place long enough to LIVE through the supplements - or calls from homeowner when they cannot seem to find a contractor to do the work for the price allowed. Then you find they didn't know if the database price included dumpster or not, they didn't check for multiple layers to remove, and on and on.

The devil is in the details, and if the scope of repair is described right, and the tools of the software are understood (including what is included for that repair item) then the task of estimate reconciliation gets a lot easier.

And I agree that the lowest bid is not always the right one. I was managing property 20 years ago when a roofer took off the roof of an apartment building just before it poured rain, we discovered the liability and bond insurance were fiction, and the guy had so many jobs open when the rain came that he basically folded (changed names...)

Bob H
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rickhans
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07/01/2009 3:18 AM
I guess I will resurrect this thread as I have done a couple others tonight since this is the first I have had time to read a lot of these forums since before Ike.
 
As both an adjuster and a contractor, for years I estimated roofs with a single entry for tear off, and a single entry for installation that included felt, material, labor, metal, etc. My roofing sub still prices his labor this way, but at times I have had to itemize only because contractors using Xactimate started this process a few years ago and I had to figure out why my cost per sq. was coming out different.  In some cases their estimate was being padded.  And I must add that I have never seen a tear off where the felt and edging could be retained, nor have I ever heard of an adjuster writing an estimate and excluding these items until I read some comments here about it.  I can't figure out how it could be done having re-roofed many houses as part of a renovation job.
 
Since I switched from EZ-Bid in 2008 to Powerclaim, I have have found that most of the contractors roofing prices came fairly close to the single line Powerclaim estimate.  However, the Craftsman data base used by Powerclaim (and I believe also Integraclaim) can vary by zip code when at times it should not.  I found for instance, that in some major cities, such as Springfield MO, that using a zip code for a rural area outside of Springfield could result in a substantially lower estimate for a roof than using the Springfield zip code, whereas the actual cost was higher due to distance to the job and distance to haul and dump the tear off. When this happens, I use the zip code that results in the correct estimate.
 
I have always gotten roofing bids or at least cost per sq. quotes from roofers in each area I have adjusted regardless of what software I was using to ensure that I was quoting the correct price. Rarely have I had to submit a supplement.  No pricing data base can be 100% accurate, especially when market factors affect the cost after a major hail storm or tornado outbreak.  As a result, most of the time I use single line entry for the cost to install then have add'l line items for steep slope and 2 story.  Sometimes, however, to make it work right, or to validate a contractors detail estimate, I do break it down by individual component. Since I have not seen any of the data on the claim that is subject to this thread, I can't comment other than to say that I am certain that it is not a software problem, instead is a difference in the way the two estimates were entered, as others have also opined.
 
I am now having to learn Xactimate for a couple of companies I am going to be adjusting for and will do it however it works in X.
 
 
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Ray Hall
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07/01/2009 3:20 PM
I have tried to analyze my problems with xmate as my software of choice. Its TOO hard to learn and master. The carriers that require it seem to have the adjusters do a lot of "underwriters" work for CHEAP. The monthly lease cost. The sorry photo description part of the program.The lessee can not put the program on a back up puter or a back home puter. I have came to the single most thing for my bias. Contractors who say its the only data base that is accurate as this guy did.
 
I don,t think of estimating programs as tools that tell the carrier what I am doing 24 hours a day, or I can not be an accurate estimator if I do not use the contractors choice. I use it like a thought organizer for the scope of damage, a word processor and electronic calculator to get the math correct. Power Claim does all the work I need it to do and its not how to estimate damage on a dwelling, and I don,t need to know the unit price  to clean a medium sized  crock pot for squirrel heads.
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dparsons
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07/06/2009 10:56 AM

Ray, I have used Xactimate for years and presently use Sketch, which I find is the best one of the bunch.  I have not heard anyone say that the tear off is the actual roof area in Squares and that the install has waste added.  The rule of thumb has always been 10% waste for a gable and 15% for a hip.  Some roofs that are extremely cut up should have more waste added.  Also, additional charges for steep and 2 story are to be added, if needed.  When accessing the Estimate lines in Xactimate, on the right there is a picture of the material and a description of what the price includes.  Xactimate gives a figure including felt and one that does not.  I always included felt when the roof is torn off to the deck because the felt is destroyed in the process.  This is usually 15# felt and some of the roofers want 30# for 30 year or better roofs.  I go by the specs put out by the roofing material manufacturers, which is nearly always 15# felt. 

The guy who started this added P&O which shows he knew nothing about the roofing business.  He never mentioned waste, nor did anyone else, which kind of surprised me.  The biggest problem with Xactimate, or any other estimating product, is their price database is NEVER right on roofing.  I always get a price list going into a storm and correct my prices accordingly.

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Ray Hall
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07/06/2009 12:12 PM
For as long as I can recall a storm was planed by the local market for the storm. Example: a city would have several carrier claim offices and several IA offices as well as several contractors who specialized in insurance work. With in 24 hours this group of pro's would get their heads together and come up with a "price list" for that Storm.

The out of town adjusters and contractors would pick up a copy when they hit town. This stopped all the "can,t be done" n its tracks. We did not have to look at 5-6 different date base prices in computer software, that would send up a warning flag , if modified for local conditions. Oh, we also used paper and ball point pens.

Notice to all plaintiff attorneys reading this post, please call d parsons to be your expert before me as he uses Xactimate and I do not.
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Tim_Johnson
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07/07/2009 8:23 AM
Xmate pricing is just wrong. We inspected a roof yesterday. At the time of assignment the carrier sent us the roofer's bid, $16,000+. We inspected, called the roofer and were in agreement on the scope. We plugged it into Xmate and our sheet was $21,000+. We sent our report to the carrier advising them to pay off of the roofer's bid. It just makes you wonder how many have been over paid because alot of adjusters rely 100% on the database pricing.
Tim Johnson
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Ray Hall
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07/07/2009 10:17 AM

Tim, I know you uave seen this many times on a smoke claim. The remediation contractor runs the xmate estimate up the flag pole. The insured see's the bottom line and agrees to settle with the adjuster for 1/3 of the xmate bottom line. He hires his own maid services and takes SOME clothes to a cleaner and you and the insured settle the trash can clothes. You are the hero for saving the carrier 40-50%, the insured and agent are very happy. Now thats rolling the clock back two decades but I call it indemnification.

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