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Subject: O&P Question
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Bob HarveyUser is Offline
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California, Central Coast
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Posts:323


11/08/2007 10:44 PM  
Usually to be considered for O&P a claim has to be over 20 thousand dollars

I understand the issues of complexity of the project requiring a GC, but how do you draw a line at a dollar amount? 

That is not a concept I can apply to the files on my desk.

Sure, there are big claims that come through, but the day to day water pipe leaks that get attended to by the national companies like ServPro, or ServiceMaster will often range $5,000 to $15,000.  I've lived and worked in the same area doing claims for many years, and see these guys subcontracting out the larger drywall repairs, a different vendor for flooring, and of course there are lot's of things they will do with their own laborers.  And they have a GC license.

 

Bob HarveyUser is Offline
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California, Central Coast
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Posts:323


11/08/2007 11:12 PM  
Posted By Ray Hall on 11/08/2007 10:39 PM

This is kinda off topic.... The adjuster looks at a loss and does an accurate scope and detailed estimate. When he gets his mail he finds an estimate for roof shingles on and off $, gutter repairs$, drywall ceiling repairs $, ceiling paint $ clean up and trash haul $. It is signed by the contactor the insured selected and will use to do the work for a total of $1,000.00 less than the adjusters estimate that is due when the work is complete.

 1.Do you say the estimate is not detailed enough and not acceptable ?

2. Turn in both and recommend the contractor's amount be paid ?

3. Call the insured & contractor and say you can only recommend your estimate amount as its more accurate ?

4. Tell the insured who is an officer of the insurance company that he left some $ on the table.

5. Tell the insured to send $1,000.00 back to the claim department as you get paid by the amount of the loss and it make a differance to YOU.

I say choice #2 if the lower estimate will put the insured back in a pre-loss condition. And yes I would turn in both estimates, using mine as a comparative to show that the contractor's bid is reasonable when compared to unit pricing costs. You see estimates like this a lot with contractors that don't do insurance work. They walk in a room and say "$400 for paint" "$450 for drywall" without calling out the exact SF.

Martin BrewerUser is Offline

Hixson, TN
Member
Posts:10


11/12/2007 10:09 PM  
Bob, I agree with your analysis as this is the way I learned over the years about how to make a good judgment on what a job is worth. It also follows our training in estimatics on what a "small" job actually costs the contractor to do. I have seen too many young guns who only know what they learned in the classroom setting and are unable to make good decisions on what is fair and reasonable to a job operation that may not be listed in the estimating software program.

I made a recent post response to a question of how to turn off the "base service charge" (read "minimums") because the "poster" just simply didn't want to use this useful and appropriate tool in his estimates, but have been unable to locate it in the archives. My reply was that the originator apparently was deficient in understanding how "economies of scale" and "loss of efficiencies" figured into the cost estimating process. I'm still looking for his post to see if he entertained a postive learning response.

I do not wish to air out my philosophy on writing estimates on catastrophe losses, but I think you can read between the lines as to how thorough my estimates are written in those situations. I'm a great believer in developing a very accurate scope with accurate dimensions and untilizing the "Sketch" feature tool in Xactimate to provide a "win-win" estimate for both the Insured and the Insurance carrier.

My point is: This business demands and expects the newbie "Cat" adjuster to learn how to apply good estimatics in "completing" their estimates to the fairness to the policyholder's benefit so that they can present a thoughtful and serious estimate to the contractor of their choice without having to go back to the insurer for more money before the job can be contracted. This is what the Insurer wants us to do for the fostering of good will in the claims process.

Martin Brewer, AIC
Tim JohnsonUser is Offline

Hot Springs, Arkansas
Member
Posts:61


11/13/2007 5:06 PM  
Speaking of Base Service Charges, what is the difference in the setting "factor into unit cost" and "Do not apply". It seems that if you have it set to either one of these that the bottom line of the appraisal is the same. Am I missing something here?

Tim Johnson
Odie WyattUser is Offline

DFW
Member
Posts:40


11/13/2007 7:33 PM  
what is the difference in the setting "factor into unit cost" and "Do not apply". It seems that if you have it set to either one of these that the bottom line of the appraisal is the same.


You can actually get 3 different bottom lines. Take drywall, factored in is priced at 1.63, broken out is 1.46.
1.63 x 1000 = 1630 factored in
1.46 x 1000 = 1460 + 150 (or whatever the bsc is) = 1610 broken out
or with bsc turned off, "do not apply"
1.46 x 1000 = 1460

On a very large estimate, the differences can be substantial.
Bob HarveyUser is Offline
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California, Central Coast
Member
Posts:323


11/13/2007 8:19 PM  
On a very large estimate, the differences can be substantial.

Yep. Per Xactimate, the BSC is their solution to "economy of scale". If it is a big job, lots of Sf, you are supposed to "factor in" the BSC.

If it's a small job, your are supposed to "break out" the BSC, but many carriers don't like to see them, and so they get cut anyway.

BSC's are the couple hours (usually) of trip charges associated with the trade, and have zero materials whatsoever, it is pure labor.  When the BSC is "factored in" those couple hours of labor get sprinkled into the unit cost, so the cost per Sf goes up a little bit.

People refer to Base Service Charges as Min Chg, but a typical Min Chge would allow for 1/2 sheet of drywall or whatever to get a small job done. The BSC's are pure labor, and when you look at the estimate summary window in Xactimate and click on the Base Service Charge icon you can see how many hours they are allowing, and even change the number of hours, turn it off, factor that BSC into the unit costs, etc.

Personally, to avoid grief with claims examiners that don't REALLY understand BSC's and just look at them as fluff (they aren't intended to be), I just always set Xactimate to "factor in" BSC's, and if a trade needs more time due to small area of repair I put it right in the estimate with a note explaining why they need 2 hours or whatever.   Otherwise, the examiner is reading your estimate, OK, this room looks reasonable, OK, we allow that for paint, OK, then they hit the last page with $100's of dollars of Base Service Charges all grouped together, and they tend to protest them.

If someone does a fresh install of Xactimate, and the default BSC settings are not changed, it will often create more Base Service fees than are needed.  If your estimate has the right combination of repairs, Xactimate can spit out a bunch of overlapping BSC's like for the cleaning trade, plus for a general laborer, if not inspected by human eyes.

Leland CoontzUser is Offline

Member
Posts:81


11/13/2007 10:35 PM  
One of the realities often overlooked is the difference between a contractor that does restoration work and a general contractor that builds buildings.

Let's say you have a small bathroom that needs a toilet replaced along with some drywall, baseboard, paint, linoleum, etc. due to a slab leak. How many trades is this- about 6, including the concrete patch. Imagine 6 minimums on this job- VERY profitable for a restoration contractor that has sharp laborers who know how to do multiple trades.

Very unprofitable for a larger contractor that builds buildings and subs out all the different trades, unless the boss is willing to get dirty and do the work himself.

The reality is if I have a claim like that I will probably not put in 6 full minimums, because such a job should be priced on the basis of what a restoration contractor would really accept, and most of them would agree that their painter can also do a drywall patch and a few feet of baseboard. Its simply not market pricing to pack 6 minimums into a small job.

As far as the big contractor goes, I might have to explain to the insured and the contractor that they are not really set up for that type of job, and the insurance company does not owe some large amount simply because a certain contracotr is not set up for small jobs.

Conversly that big contractor can probably underbid the small contractor when the project is large.
Bob HarveyUser is Offline
Gold Member
California, Central Coast
Member
Posts:323


11/13/2007 10:41 PM  

I get claims from a semi-large carrier in California that has a flat rule: no more than 2 Min Chge per estimate, and they really don't want to see more than 1 - it sets off red flags for the very reason you stated (they figure the same restoration crew will do most of the trades anyway).

If it is a small 5 x 8 bathroom with multiple trades, and you are only paying the SF of paint, flooring, baseboard - nobody gets out of bed for those prices. It can be a challenge, and that is the "nut" that Xactimate was trying to crack when they gave birth to BSC's with the 2002 version.

I think it was a good concept, but they should have applied some lubricant and education for a year before releasing it - as the BSC's have been rejected by most clients I work with.   People that "don't have time to read the manual" do not fully understand BSC's and they got a bad rap.

Todd SummersUser is Offline
Adjuster
Member
Posts:11


11/15/2007 3:03 PM  

2.

ron jenkinsUser is Offline

Member
Posts:9


11/15/2007 7:09 PM  
Carrier I work for in Florida only pays o&p with a signed contract by g.c. and insured. The reason being is that Florida is now a RCV up front state therefore the insured is getting RCV upfront with no hold back so in there eyes this is fair balance. I have not had many complaints on it except from some public adjusters. However I have heard that there is a class action loss suit filed or going to be filed in the State of Forida regarding this. The suit I hear claims that the insured is entitled to the overhead and profit regardless if they use a general contractor or supervise repairs themselves.
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